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Newbies shopping for competition guns, read this!

This is a discussion on Newbies shopping for competition guns, read this! within the Competition forums, part of the Shooting category; "With all the comments about how bad the trigger is in the M&P, should I buy one for competition? And which one?" First let me ...


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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:37 AM   #1
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"With all the comments about how bad the trigger is in the M&P, should I buy one for competition? And which one?"



First let me clarify one thing... I shoot USPSA frequently, about 70-80 matches per year. I shoot with around 100 different shooters. Many of my best friends shoot Glocks, XDs, etc. Some also shoot the M&P platform. (I shoot an M&P 9 Pro in Production, and Limited "Minor"). At LEAST 90% of the Production Division guns (all brands) have trigger-work and/or aftermarket sights. The Glock guys are NOT shooting factory triggers or sights. The XD guys are NOT shooting factory triggers or sights, and the M&P guys are not shooting factory stuff.



I mention Glocks, XDs and M&Ps because they constitute 90% of the Production Division shooter's guns. There are a few Sigs, Berettas, Tauruses, etc... but most of those are "hobbyist" shooters, or people shooting their carry guns.



I think the M&P is getting a "bad rap" for it's "crappy trigger", when in reality NOBODY is running stock triggers in the gun-games...



The M&P is "gritty". The Glock is "mushy". The XD is "a mile long and heavy".... NONE of the them are optimized for gaming.







If you're buying a gun for self-defense, buy a reliable gun, with a heavy trigger, and don't change ANYTHING on it, except maybe the addition of good night sights.



If you're buying a gun for competition, buy the gun that fits your hand the best, with the lowest bore axis. All of them need trigger work and "better" (personal preference) sights.



If you're buying a M&P specifically for competition, buy the 5" (9L or Pro) for the sight radius. The Pro trigger IS a bit better, but most guys make it better still. The PRO sights are better, but many (like me) change them out for a narrower front sight (like my Dawson)... If I was starting over, I'd STILL buy the M&P over the Glock or XD. But, I'd get a 9L, and swap the sights, and trigger.



I DON'T carry my competition gun, or use it for home defense. The trigger is around 2-2.5lbs... The sights are not optimal for low-light... Your results may vary!



JeffWard
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Old September 15th, 2010, 08:08 AM   #2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard' post='271763' date='Sep 15 2010, 09:37 AM
"With all the comments about how bad the trigger is in the M&P, should I buy one for competition? And which one?"



First let me clarify one thing... I shoot USPSA frequently, about 70-80 matches per year. I shoot with around 100 different shooters. Many of my best friends shoot Glocks, XDs, etc. Some also shoot the M&P platform. (I shoot an M&P 9 Pro in Production, and Limited "Minor"). At LEAST 90% of the Production Division guns (all brands) have trigger-work and/or aftermarket sights. The Glock guys are NOT shooting factory triggers or sights. The XD guys are NOT shooting factory triggers or sights, and the M&P guys are not shooting factory stuff.



I mention Glocks, XDs and M&Ps because they constitute 90% of the Production Division shooter's guns. There are a few Sigs, Berettas, Tauruses, etc... but most of those are "hobbyist" shooters, or people shooting their carry guns.



I think the M&P is getting a "bad rap" for it's "crappy trigger", when in reality NOBODY is running stock triggers in the gun-games...



The M&P is "gritty". The Glock is "mushy". The XD is "a mile long and heavy".... NONE of the them are optimized for gaming.







If you're buying a gun for self-defense, buy a reliable gun, with a heavy trigger, and don't change ANYTHING on it, except maybe the addition of good night sights.



If you're buying a gun for competition, buy the gun that fits your hand the best, with the lowest bore axis. All of them need trigger work and "better" (personal preference) sights.



If you're buying a M&P specifically for competition, buy the 5" (9L or Pro) for the sight radius. The Pro trigger IS a bit better, but most guys make it better still. The PRO sights are better, but many (like me) change them out for a narrower front sight (like my Dawson)... If I was starting over, I'd STILL buy the M&P over the Glock or XD. But, I'd get a 9L, and swap the sights, and trigger.



I DON'T carry my competition gun, or use it for home defense. The trigger is around 2-2.5lbs... The sights are not optimal for low-light... Your results may vary!



JeffWard


I own multiple versions of Glock, XDm, and MP. I also do my own trigger work on the guns when needed, usually just to clean up grit/creep out of the stroke while leaving the pull tension at stock levels.



To summarize....



M&P OOB has a "glitchy" and gritty trigger stroke. The biggest glitch is when the trigger bar's striker block cam is actuating the striker block. So, stoning (mirror polish) the bearing surfaces of the trigger bar's striker cam, bottom face of the striker block, sear face, and strker stud will clear up most if not all of the grittiness in the trigger stroke. However, all of the grit from the striker block is AFTER the sear has released the striker. So, while the grit is obviously noticable when dry firing the gun esp with the striker uncocked, you won't (or shouldn't) notice any of the grit associated with the striker block when the gun is fired with live ammo. The only M&P that I might reduce the trigger pull on is the 45. OOB, it's about 7-8 lbs. I shoot it fine the way it is though (in terms of split times for example).



Overall, the XDm has the best "quality" trigger pull OOB. The stock trigger pull is about 4.5 lbs. Since there is little to no grit in the stroke to begin with, stoning would yield little or no benefits. To clarify, the stroke is a little bit longER than the other guns, but not LONNNG like DA revolver or DA auto pistol. XDm's bore axis is the highest of the three brand guns mentioned here by about 1/8". However, IMO the shooters technique and/or how the ammo is loaded will have greater impact on muzzle flip than relative bore axis height. Of the three, speed reloads with the XDm are the smoothest and fastest.



Glock trigger pull OOB is heavy and worsened by the "safe action" design, which means increasing tension at an increasing rate as the trigger is pulled. Installing a 3.5 connector and using Wolff trigger/striker springs will create a more competition friendly trigger pull at about 4.5 lbs (eg, Dave Sevigny). I also stone all the bearing surfaces to remove grit sensation out of the trigger stroke. Implicit with the Sevigny "custom" trigger job is its equivalence to stock XDm and M&P triggers. BTW, the Glocks' grip ergonomics that many don't like, makes for a suprisingingly controllable gun when it is rapid fired. My knock against the Glock are the numerous cutouts/edges/corners on both the top of the mags and the bottom opening of the mag well than tend to hang up speed reloads.



One other way to view these three brands guns is level of aftermarket support....Glock is biggest/longest, XD is middle/intermediate, and M&Ps is smallest/shortest.



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



Anyway....



I'm thinking of building an M&P9 Open gun just to mess around with. You know where I can get lower tension recoil springs (or guide rod assemblies) and perhaps a comp for it too?



f1
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Old September 15th, 2010, 08:52 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearless1' post='271770' date='Sep 15 2010, 04:08 PM
I own multiple versions of Glock, XDm, and MP. I also do my own trigger work on the guns when needed, usually just to clean up grit/creep out of the stroke while leaving the pull tension at stock levels.



To summarize....



M&P OOB has a "glitchy" and gritty trigger stroke. The biggest glitch is when the trigger bar's striker block cam is actuating the striker block. So, stoning (mirror polish) the bearing surfaces of the trigger bar's striker cam, bottom face of the striker block, sear face, and strker stud will clear up most if not all of the grittiness in the trigger stroke. However, all of the grit from the striker block is AFTER the sear has released the striker. So, while the grit is obviously noticable when dry firing the gun esp with the striker uncocked, you won't (or shouldn't) notice any of the grit associated with the striker block when the gun is fired with live ammo. The only M&P that I might reduce the trigger pull on is the 45. OOB, it's about 7-8 lbs. I shoot it fine the way it is though (in terms of split times for example).



Overall, the XDm has the best "quality" trigger pull OOB. The stock trigger pull is about 4.5 lbs. Since there is little to no grit in the stroke to begin with, stoning would yield little or no benefits. To clarify, the stroke is a little bit longER than the other guns, but not LONNNG like DA revolver or DA auto pistol. XDm's bore axis is the highest of the three brand guns mentioned here by about 1/8". However, IMO the shooters technique and/or how the ammo is loaded will have greater impact on muzzle flip than relative bore axis height. Of the three, speed reloads with the XDm are the smoothest and fastest.



Glock trigger pull OOB is heavy and worsened by the "safe action" design, which means increasing tension at an increasing rate as the trigger is pulled. Installing a 3.5 connector and using Wolff trigger/striker springs will create a more competition friendly trigger pull at about 4.5 lbs (eg, Dave Sevigny). I also stone all the bearing surfaces to remove grit sensation out of the trigger stroke. Implicit with the Sevigny "custom" trigger job is its equivalence to stock XDm and M&P triggers. BTW, the Glocks' grip ergonomics that many don't like, makes for a suprisingingly controllable gun when it is rapid fired. My knock against the Glock are the numerous cutouts/edges/corners on both the top of the mags and the bottom opening of the mag well than tend to hang up speed reloads.



One other way to view these three brands guns is level of aftermarket support....Glock is biggest/longest, XD is middle/intermediate, and M&Ps is smallest/shortest.



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



Anyway....



I'm thinking of building an M&P9 Open gun just to mess around with. You know where I can get lower tension recoil springs (or guide rod assemblies) and perhaps a comp for it too?



f1


ISMI and Wolf springs work great. 13# seems to be the competition standard (minimum to reliably return to battery). Speed Shooters Specialties carries many rod/spring combos. I run a Stainless, full-length, un-captured rod, and a 13# ISMI spring. I got my rod from www.guiderod.com . Good guy to work with. Glock 17 springs, and M&P springs are the same spring.



Threaded barrels for the comp from Lone Wolf.



Dan Burwell has an Open Division M&P here: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?show...104&hl=Open
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:27 AM   #4
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard' post='271777' date='Sep 15 2010, 12:52 PM
ISMI and Wolf springs work great. 13# seems to be the competition standard (minimum to reliably return to battery). Speed Shooters Specialties carries many rod/spring combos. I run a Stainless, full-length, un-captured rod, and a 13# ISMI spring. I got my rod from www.guiderod.com . Good guy to work with. Glock 17 springs, and M&P springs are the same spring.



Threaded barrels for the comp from Lone Wolf.



Dan Burwell has an Open Division M&P here: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?show...104&hl=Open


Excellent...just what I was looking for in terms of springs/rods.



As for the comp...I guess building an XDm open would be the easiest path to follow at the moment...



thanks



f1
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:52 AM   #5
 
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I'm not the most experienced shooter by any means, nor do I compete, but I love my M&P trigger. I tried pretty much every polymer frame 9mm on the market and liked the M&P trigger the best (except for maybe glock, which was uncomfortable in my hand). I guess I just dont see what the problem is with the M&P trigger, is it the overtravel? The side-to-side slop (the only part that actually bugs me)? What is it that people don't like? What does a "gritty" trigger mean? Mine seems plenty smooth.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearless1' post='271770' date='Sep 15 2010, 09:08 AM
...all of the grit from the striker block is AFTER the sear has released the striker. So, while the grit is obviously noticeable when dry firing the gun esp with the striker uncocked, you won't (or shouldn't) notice any of the grit associated with the striker block when the gun is fired with live ammo.
No offense intended but I have found this to be incorrect with every M&P I've had the pleasure of working on, YMMV.



That gritty take-up has been the major issue for folks I've dealt with and has been one of the top 4 complaints on this forum (along with initial mag drop issues (mostly resolved), low/left POI which is a training issue, and the current administration in Washington.) Rounding and polishing the bottom of the striker block can reduce the gritty take-up by ~30%, potentially as much at 50% if you stone/polish the trigger bar contact point depending on how far you need to take it. Reducing striker block pressure by cutting 3 loops off the striker block spring can decrease grittiness by another ~30%. These numbers are mostly subjective since an objective method of determining a precise level of grittiness may not be possible with the tools presently available.



After installing 7 APEX USP kits (Ultimate Striker Block) I am of the opinion that they reduce gritty take-up by 80-90% depending on how bad that particular M&P was to start with, smoothing the trigger bar reduces it further. Although a couple/few M&Ps started out grittier than the others (one in particular) installing the APEX USB and stoning/polishing the trigger bar contact area, often as part of the APEX DCAEK, made them feel nearly identical.



Disclaimer: I am not a real gunsmith.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #7
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Back to the original topic... Competition shooters of Glocks almost unanimously install 3.5# trigger-bars, and polish all internals, and lighten striker springs, and change out the CRAPPY plastic Glock sights, and... you get the idea.



The XDs get trigger lightening, reduced over-travel, springs, and sights also...



I agree that the Apex parts are superior to the factory parts. My Burwell trigger is Soooooooo Smooth, light, short... It's scary nice.





If you're buying a handgun for USPSA/IPSC/IDPA/etc... the M&P is as nice of a ride as you're gonna get, when it's "finished" like the rest.



Jeff
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Old September 15th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #8
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRWeiss' post='271792' date='Sep 15 2010, 02:46 PM
No offense intended but I have found this to be incorrect with every M&P I've had the pleasure of working on, YMMV.



That gritty take-up has been the major issue for folks I've dealt with and has been one of the top 4 complaints on this forum (along with initial mag drop issues (mostly resolved), low/left POI which is a training issue, and the current administration in Washington.) Rounding and polishing the bottom of the striker block can reduce the gritty take-up by ~30%, potentially as much at 50% if you stone/polish the trigger bar contact point depending on how far you need to take it. Reducing striker block pressure by cutting 3 loops off the striker block spring can decrease grittiness by another ~30%. These numbers are mostly subjective since an objective method of determining a precise level of grittiness may not be possible with the tools presently available.



After installing 7 APEX USP kits (Ultimate Striker Block) I am of the opinion that they reduce gritty take-up by 80-90% depending on how bad that particular M&P was to start with, smoothing the trigger bar reduces it further. Although a couple/few M&Ps started out grittier than the others (one in particular) installing the APEX USB and stoning/polishing the trigger bar contact area, often as part of the APEX DCAEK, made them feel nearly identical.



Disclaimer: I am not a real gunsmith.




I thought I should have worded things a little bit differently with this one sentence. Re-read "...all the grit associated only with the striker block is after...". Your comments presume I'm talking about all the grittiness in the trigger stroke in that particular sentence. Otherwise, of course there are other things in the gun that can cause a gritty feeling trigger pull than just the trigger bar cam/striker block engagement.



One can use the following procedures to very accurately determine "relative grit/creep/drag" in any particular M&P.



To find/determine grit/creep/drag in trigger, trigger bar, trigger bar/sear engagement, simply remove the upper half of the gun (slide assembly) then manipulate the trigger. The results I've generally experienced has been very little if any grit/creep/drag here. This implies no stoning of trigger, trigger bar (other than the striker block cam), bottom of the sear, misc bearing surfaces associated with these parts are not necessary.



To determine grit/creep/drag amount associated with sear face and striker stud engagement, first remove the striker block from the slide then reassemble the gun.* Manipulate the trigger with the striker cocked to determine the amount of grit/creep/drag and stone as needed/desired (I haven't had to much here either). Alternatively, one can simply remove the striker and sear parts from the gun and use a magnifying glass to examine them for machine marks, abberations, etc.



To determine grit/creep/drag between trigger bar striker block cam and the striker block, reassemble the gun with the striker block re-installed. Disconnect the sear by engaging the yellow lever, then manipulate the trigger. Here, you should find much grit/creep/drag associated only with the striker block engagement (remember, you already diagnosed and perhaps polished away all other sources of grit/creep/drag). Why so much grit/creep/drag here? Because the many large tool marks found on the face of the trigger bar's striker block cam that are rubbing against the beveled edge surfaces of the striker block. Grinding and polishing away the tool marks on the cam (as well as installation of after market striker block) will elminate most if not all of the grit/creep/drag here. However, as already mentioned above, the striker block is engaged just as the sear is beginning to release the striker. This means when the trigger finally breaks, it (along with the gun going BANG) will mask whatever striker block grit there is. In other words, you feel the grit/creep/drag only when manipulating the trigger of an uncocked gun making any corrections here more an aesthetic one than a functional one.



As far as issues such as trigger take up, backlash, etc, I just practice through these especially considering these qualities will always be different when switching between different make/model guns.



f1

(former FFL custom gun builder)



* Btw, if you leave out the striker block...you end up with an "instant trigger job"....albeit a lesser safe gun too!
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Old September 15th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #9
 
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So back to the original topic and my $0.02... (fwiw)...



1. Figure out what game and division that you want to focus on and READ THE RULES.

1a. Make sure you are reading the right set of rules... (for IPSC, virtually all US based clubs operate under USPSA rules and not IPSC - international rules. They have different equipment and magazine capacity requirements)

2. Talk to as many shooters as you can and ask if you can hold/dry fire their guns. Look down the sights to get a perspective on what may work for you. (what I look for is a frame that fits my hand that has the lowest bore axis) Ask about their mods, and what works/doesn't work as well as what they would do different next time. Some will even volunteer to let you run a few rounds if you are interested.

3. Check your budget. For most action pistol games, you will need more than two magazines (more like 5 if you pursue USPSA Production Division), good belt and a suitable holster to get started.

3a. Figure out how much to spend getting the gun competition ready. You may be able to deal with stock trigger and sights for a while and slowly make it into the racing machine as you begin competing.

3b. When selecting the gun, don't forget to factor in ammo costs. Especially if you don't reload and want to shoot something bigger than 9mm.

4. Pick the gun you like. It is not a fashion statement and form follows function. If it fits and works for you, don't worry about what Joe Tactical is spouting off, just let your scores do the talking.

5. It's not a lifetime commitment. You can always upgrade when you got the funds. But if you can find something that works well for you on day 1, you will improve faster.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearless1' post='271770' date='Sep 15 2010, 11:08 AM
Anyway....



I'm thinking of building an M&P9 Open gun just to mess around with. You know where I can get lower tension recoil springs (or guide rod assemblies) and perhaps a comp for it too?



f1


I'm in the final stages of having an M&P 9L Open gun built. You can get stainless steel and tungsten guide rods, a variety of ISMI springs and barrels from SSS. Threaded barrels are available from Storm Lake, Lone Wolf and KKK. Any 9mm Comp with a 1/2 X 28 which seems to be the standard, will fit. We're working with a Jager. SSS has mounts for most common Optics as well. We're using a Deltapoint with the factory dovetail mount. You can also get magwells and 10+ mag extensions



I'd really suggest browsing the SSS website to get a handle on what's available.
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Old March 15th, 2011, 02:47 PM   #11
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Hello everyone, Im having trouble competing in Production with my M&P Pro. I am currently competing in IPSC and not being allowed in the Production division because the trigger pull is less than 5 lbs. Does anyone else have this problem? I am aware the rule says the pull must not be under 5 lbs. but there is also an exception which says that handguns listed in the IPSC website are allowed.
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Old March 15th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #12
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The APEX Duty/Carry trigger return spring ads about a pound to the trigger pull without any adverse effects.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 02:38 PM   #13
 
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I agree with the Glock trigger not being bad to start off with and between S&W & Springfield its got the most going for it. I paid 15 bucks and had my Glock set up nicely with the 3.5 pound trigger from Ghost and I love it. No way am I getting that on my M&P I'm looking at 90 bucks for Apex. Now this may turn out to be a better set up from the sounds of it I would think so and I like the feel of the the M&P trigger better by default but thats a huge difference for a small upgrade. I don't care much for the XDs (Way to much Glock in them)so don't know to much about them but they do seem to have a bit better aftermarket than M&P so you might get away cheaper. However, I think you will spend way more than the Glock. Crappy Glock sights? I loved them. I did black out the rear post but other than that they worked great.



Out of box I do not think any of these triggers are terrible. The Glock I did couse I wanted mainly a faster fire rate. Yeah acceracy was improved but no trigger job is going to make you a sharp shooter unless you have the skills of a sharp shooter. Right now I am using the M&P totally stock and have no issues really with it. Its a heavy trigger for carry and competion I prefur a 3-3.5 pounds for reasons stated above so I will be getting it fixed, but I dont feel like a trigger job will have me competing against Julie Golowski the next day. If it somehow does happan I am sure she would win easily even blind folded lol.



Buy the gun you like. Use it as it is, then look at options and decide from there. All the stock triggers and other parts will do just fine once you fall in love with a platform there will be things you want to do to make it better or just to make it "yours" and at that the options are endless.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:03 AM   #14
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IPSC has two things againstt the use of the M&P in Production.



1. The minimum 5# trigger pull - I have a friend who had a bone stock M&P FS he used in IPSC. Over two seasons of shooting he began to fail the 5# trigger pull minimum and found himself in Open Division. He hadn't so much as touched any of the internals of his gun.



2. All the Apex parts are illegal for use in IPSC Production and without a minimum trigger pull of 5#'s you find yourself in Open Division.



I currently have my old FS with the PRO parts installed. Unfortunately the trigger pull fell to below 5#s. I plan to install the original trigger return spring to see if it brings the pull back over 5#s. Love the gun. Not so much the sport.



If S&W ever offers the Apex parts as a factory option the the Duty Kit would be in my FS in a heartbeat.



Take Care



Bob
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Old September 12th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #15
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Newbies shopping for competition guns, read this!

One thing you could do to try and get the pull Back above 5# is stretch it a little by pulling it on opposite ends between your two hands. Pull it slowly and you should feel the spring stretch a little. We're not talking about a lot here.

Also, if you are shooting in the states in USPSA you can really modify the heck out of the M&P platform and still maintain "production" classification. Apex internals are allowed, heavier guide rods are allowed, lighter weight springs are allowed, aftermarket sights (non-optic) are allowed.

You can get away with quite a lot in the production USPSA class.

Last edited by GlockBlock; September 12th, 2013 at 05:46 PM.
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