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Lock and Load when on Duty?

This is a discussion on Lock and Load when on Duty? within the Law Enforcement forums, part of the Armory category; Originally Posted by ANGEL KING Agreed. What you mentioned is similar to what the academy teaches. The 21ft rule. I heard they extended it to ...


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Old May 26th, 2011, 04:41 AM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGEL KING View Post
Agreed. What you mentioned is similar to what the academy teaches. The 21ft rule. I heard they extended it to 25 a while back but I can't confirm this. Nevertheless, the purpose of the 21ft safety margin is this: This is the MINIMAM distance a motivated person with a edged weapon can get to you before you are good to engage him. Meaning that if a, to use your 23 year old tweaker male as example...If he charged you with a blade from 21ft., that is the mimimal distance that you can draw your firearm and fire before you holster his knife in your neck.



So, always carry one in the chamber and use a holster you can get in a physical fight in without losing your gun.




Angle King, I think you might mean Maximum distance is about 21 ft. I think if you drew and fired on a 23 year old male brandishing a knife or baseball bat that was 21 YARDS away, you might end up going to jail, or at least being sued
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Old May 26th, 2011, 07:39 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draselok' timestamp='1306410089'post='300548
Angle King, I think you might mean...


I understood what he meant, and "Maximum distance" wasn't it. This 21 ft.rule has been discussed many times and is generally accepted as the minimum distance required to respond to a contact weapon, less than that and it's no longer a tie.





As far as a BG with a baseball bat at 21 yards, if I perceive his intent is to do bodily harm then I'm definitely going to draw my weapon and begin warning him (or her) of my intent. At about 25 feet he'll start catching lead; that accumulation will increase exponentially as the distance decreases. There will be no warning shots.



Edit: Spelling.
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Old May 26th, 2011, 01:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draselok View Post
Angle King, I think you might mean Maximum distance is about 21 ft. I think if you drew and fired on a 23 year old male brandishing a knife or baseball bat that was 21 YARDS away, you might end up going to jail, or at least being sued




We're talking about reaction times. If 21 ft or less, a normal person would not be able to reliably defend against a knife attack by a very motivated attacker. Concerning reaction times, and with a firearm from the holster.



One method to remedy this is to take several quick side steps if possible while unholstering. Instead of backstepping.
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Old July 10th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #34
 
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I agree, I only unload to to do maintenance, dry-fire practice, or changeout to practice ammo. We use S&W 4006 with a decocker so, one in the pipe with hammer decocked and safety returned to fire with a full mag in plus two full mags on belt. Our SO just went from Glocks to XDM45's, they keep one in the pipe plus full mag in and 3 full spare mags on the belt.

We are a small department and do most shifts solo so we only keep our sidearm (bosses decide to take shotguns out of cars and put in locked cabinet in basement along with our new AR's, so if you need it you have to call Duty Officer to come retrieve it for you, same goes for our ONE taser we have, lol), The SO here gets sidearm and mags as previously stated and 12ga and M14 issued to keep in thier patrol vehicle with authorization to carry their personal AR with them. Oh well, I guess if there is too much trouble I'll yell BANG, BANG over the PA and wait for a deputy to bring the rain. Sorry kind a veered off for a minute there, can't get upset if it wasn't for this department I wouldn't have got a chance at Law Enforcement. Anyhow, Yes, ALWAYS carry HOT, that second or two to rack a round in could cost you your life!
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Old July 10th, 2011, 09:03 PM   #35
 
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We carry loaded with one in the chamber.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 04:42 AM   #36
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I'm not an LEO, but you guy's have me confused with your terminology of "Lock and Load". Here's my take on lock and loaded. I carry my 1911's in C1. Lock and load, in the military means this. 1911 with one in chamber, hammer back, safety on. Draw, in same motion thumb down safety, when weapon on target, apply finger to trigger, if you're going to shoot, if not, trigger finger off trigger, aligned with slide. Same with CAR 16 or M4. Gun is cocked, drop safety and ready to rock.



This carry was off base, in live fire at the range, live fire exercise or combat zone only. On base, one in chamber, hammer is down, must pull hammer back to shoot. Also had to, by default have grip safety engaged.



On a M&P, or other striker fired pistols, one in chamber does not constitute "lock and load", as stiker is not fully engaged and firing pin won't move forward, until trigger is pulled, completing firing cycle.



Other LEO's that I know use any number of weapons that have a decocker, so they cycle slide put one in chamber and decock hammer, again having to pull trigger in DA pistols to fire, similar to using a revolver.



Lock and loaded in a 1911 should be a no-no for most people until they have years of practice and training, even then you must be very aware of the weapon, and associated risks, when carrying in this condition. I couldn't see too many LEO agencies allowing this type of carry, for liability issues. Then again, I don't think many LEO's are using a 1911 style configured pistol.



Humorous aside: Where I work, I always have a 1911 loosely in a holster, sitting right on my desk with me, in my office. Since I have another weapon in the car, when I leave the building for a short time, I always leave that 1911 on his desk, next to his weapon. My buddy knows weapons fairly well, but although he has a sizable collection of firearms, he's not really a hard core "gun guy", doesn't practice often etc. On day he noticed my 1911 sitting on his desk, next to his. Then after closer inspection, he noticed the hammer was back. He about freaked the hell out, until he called another guy in the business to show him that he thought I'd lost my mind. Third guy nonchalonetly sees hammer back, and explains to partner that hammer is back safety on, gun safe, cocked and locked. Explained that safety must be off, and hand on grip safety, and finger on trigger to fire.



Next, I know this is a little off topic but I know quite a few LEO's, city, state and sheriffs deptuties that rarely practice beyond what is required by their respective agency. It scares me for them, because their attitude is that what they learned at their respective acadamies, they assume will last them for life, and annual or semi-annual qulifiying is enough. I've seen so many "cop" shows, where the LEO's technique of holding a gun on a dangerous criminal is so pitiful as to almost be laughable.

It saddens me, becuse I think "there's another LEO who might not go home tonight".



If it were me, and I had to work the night shift, and light up a suspicious vehicle, with darkened windows, out in the middle of nowhere, not knowing what kind of scumbag was in that vehicle, and what kind of weapon said scumbag might be willing to fire on me with, I'd be training every chance I got, and then a little more.



Anyway, back on topic, I don't think one in the chamber constitutes "cocked and locked".



J.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 07:26 AM   #37
 
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+1



Duty sidearm (HK USP 45) Always...ALWAYS loaded with one in the chamber. You are facing SERIOUS disciplinary action if you are found that your sidearm has an empty chamber.



-Tom
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Old December 29th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #38
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Always chambered. And for handguns with safeties (beretta 92 etc..), the safty is in the off/ ready to fire- position while on duty.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 09:54 PM   #39
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Re: Lock and Load when on Duty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGEL KING View Post
Always chambered. And for handguns with safeties (beretta 92 etc..), the safty is in the off/ ready to fire- position while on duty.
This!

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Old June 16th, 2013, 11:42 AM   #40
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The safest place for your fire arm in a tested and approved holster. If u dont have one in the pipe your likely to forget when the defecation hits the rotating oscillator. By the time you see you need a firearm you are already behinde the curve. Guns fights are won and lost in micro seconds.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #41
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"Lock and load" is such a bad term.

As most agree, having an empty chamber is quite a useless endeavor.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #42
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Pistols: Loaded chambered.

Anything other than that is stupidity.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 09:27 AM   #43
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Every agency I've either been employed by or instructed for has kept a fully functional firearm on their side. AND in the case of a firearm with a safety (other than a 1911), safety off and decocked.

Al
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:45 AM   #44
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When I arrive at work, the first thing I do is clock in, and the second thing is to load up with a round in the chamber.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 09:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by yunggunz View Post
Are LEO's taught to lock and load before they start their shift? Or do they keep it unchambered until they see fit? This is of course with a glock, MP, no-safety pistol, etc....
Neither.

Chambered ready to fire on or off duty.
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