I'm seriously considering...... - Page 3 - MP-Pistol Forum

I'm seriously considering......

This is a discussion on I'm seriously considering...... within the Law Enforcement forums, part of the Armory category; Originally Posted by ANGEL KING Yah, and I'm not worried at all about one shot stopping power. That kind of stuff occupied my mind a ...


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Old December 30th, 2011, 02:08 AM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by ANGEL KING View Post
Yah, and I'm not worried at all about one shot stopping power. That kind of stuff occupied my mind a long time ago when I was a new deputy. Handgun stopping power means shooting again and again and repeating until the threat is down or you're out of ammo. Then you about face and run away.


Yeah, it's a tough one to break through: more training. Relevance? Yes.



I loooove my .45s; STI, Caspian, and my little project for 1911 building is a stock Para GI Expert. Loooove my G21s and my G24c. (I know, that's a .40) Anyway, I digress...



Our Academy director gave us the mantra "Train like there's no tomorrow." Aerobic, strength, firearms, studying, whatever it is. The 9mm is MUCH easier for me to deliver head shots with-but there's a psychological barrier to get through there, per headshots. The NRA and MAG training I do and give does not have range time for head shots. At the end of those days I ask for range time just for headshots, for reinforcement of the headshot power.



With the Federal 124 gr. +P ammo we use Glocks deliver headshots extremely well. They are lighter than .45s to carry all day long, etc.. Keep the 220 and find a nice 226 to snuggle up with? SIG's LEO purchase program doesn't really make them more affordable to buy but you can keep your money in the SIG family.
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Old May 7th, 2012, 11:34 AM   #32
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The Cleveland, Ohio PD carries G17's and use the Federal BPLE +P+ 115 grain 9mm and have no problem with bad guy mortality rates in their OIS's
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Old May 9th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #33
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When I recently was forced to shoot an aggressive pitbull, the investigative boys took my M&P40 away for a week as protocal. So I was forced to revert back to using my Sig P220 .45 during that time. I gotta tell you, I noticed the weight of the 230gr. ammo and the heavier gun. My back felt it too after each 12 hour shift.



The polyme guns in 9 and 40 do make life easier. And with more ammo.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #34
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My back felt it too after each 12 hour shift.


Maybe a personal trainer is in order?
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Old May 9th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #35
 
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Maybe a personal trainer is in order?


Wow, that's gonna leave a mark.
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Old May 10th, 2012, 03:33 AM   #36
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Maybe a personal trainer is in order?


NOW we're talking!



(So say'eth the Personal Trainer...)



I don't feel the weight of my guns very much... but then I'm 255lbs now... LOL



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Old May 10th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #37
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Maybe a personal trainer is in order?




Haha, good one . It's not that, I run 12 miles a week and lift weights. But to me, it was a noticeable weight difference between the two. Wearing all that crap for 14 years has jacked my lower back.



It's funny, when I see new trainees coming out to patrol, it seams they have three of everything on them. After a few years, they start 'shedding' the things that aren't absolutely necessary.



I always tell them to carry a backup gun though if they don't already.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 03:48 PM   #38
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Excuses? It's not the first shot they're speaking of with shot placement it's follow up shots. I'd like to meet the person that has quicker and better placed follow up shots with a .45 compared to a 9mm. Haven't met that person in 33 years and don't expect to anytime soon. For the OP the 9mm round you were looking for was the bonded rounds from Winchester and Federal, if you were looking for obstacle penetration. I carry a .45 on duty, a Sig P220 not by choice, and I am more than proficient with it. As good as I am with my .45 I'm better with my 9mm. The first shot means nothing if you don't put the bad guy down with it, and the FBI stats show the first shot just doesn't cut it. I love .45's and 9's, own both carry both, and each has it's upside and downside. Having said that my carry guns are 9mm/.357, my duty guns/home defense guns are .45. I don't conceal carry spare mags so that's one reason I prefer 9mm for off duty use as I want as many rounds as I can get.



SHTF scenario and I only have one shot to end it all, I'll take a .357magnum all day long over pretty much everything else.
I hate to see another caliber war start here, but I'd say this. The first handgun I ever fired was a G.I. Issue, bone stock 1911 .45ACP. (military). For years I wouldn't even consider anything but a .45. In the mid 80's when the military pulled the ultimate boner and bought the Berretta over the SIG, to save a few bucks, our unit had a very specific niche, and we stuck with the 1911's. Mainly because that's what we were all proficient with. I owned multiple caliber revolvers, mostly single action for handgun hunting, but I wouldn't even consider a 9mm for carry gun. When the Colt Delta Elite first came out, it took me nearly a year and a half to find one. The 10mm was my then defacto carry gun, but It was harder to control muzzle flip. Still couldn't carry it in uniform, only off duty. Fast forward many years. My current carry gun is a .40S&W, but I'm leaning heavily toward the 9mm. Two reasons. Civilian (not ball) ammo technology has come a loooooooooonnnggg way since those days. My philosophy has changed. In a severe panic mode situation, I'm going to unload on my attacker, and keep on unloading until said attacker goes down, or takes a dirt nap. I've found that I can stay on target much better with a 9mm than I ever could with the 10mm, and definetly better than the .45ACP. Now I'm carrying a lighter weapon, my main being the .40FS, but leaning more and more towards the 9mm. I can put 5 rounds quicker into the torso of a target, than I can the .40FS. I think a lot of professionals are also coming full circle to the 9mm for the same reason. Carrying a lighter weapon, with excellent expansion of bullet due to the better bullets that have come out for the 9mm over the last several years. The capacity of the 9mm over a .45ACP is important to me also, because that one stop shot myth has been downgraded from myth to B.S. Your adversary may be mortally wounded, but may still be able to fight for 15 minutes or more until they realize that they're dead.



Here is the kicker. The Navy SEAL's can and do get anything they want, in the gear department, money be damned, but they choose the (Now MK25 SIG) vs. the now "outdated" SIG P226. Their caliber of choice? Still the 9mm. I would say that among other professionals, that SEAL's are as good or better than anyone out there. Why would they choose the 9mm, when they can have anything their jaded little hearts desire? It sure as heck isn't because 9mm is cheaper, and they have a don't give a damn about NATO. They do it because they know that they can put multiple rounds in a Torso, extremely quickly, and no matter what kind of body armor their enemy might or might not be wearing, as that first round is being absorbed by kevlar or a plate, those next 3 or 4 rounds right behind it is going to put their target down, period, or stunned enough for a lights out shot in the T zone of the head. Their adversary is not going to do jack squat with 3 or 4 quck shots to the torso or groin, and if the circumstances warrant it, one to the computer is going to shut the rest of the machine down, right now. So, they have a gun they approved and love, in the caliber of their choosing, and it happens to be the 9mm. Also, with all their other gear, just one spare mag in a high cap pistol, which is more than they'll probably ever need, would be a welcome weight savings.



So the .45ACP argument really doesn't hold much water, shooting at paper targets, vs. some of the best commando's in the world shooting at real life targets that think, move and shoot back..



I'm starting to lean towards the 9mm now. Not to emulate a SEAL, which I couldn't if I wanted too, but other SPEC OP's and SWAT shooters, and contractor's, are also rethinking the 9mm.



Personally, I don't care if you carry a .22 single shot derringer, but the old ".45ACP" vs. this or that argument, just doesn't hold water like it used too, and 32 years later, even old dogs like me, are rethinking this Cal. subject also.



J.
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Old May 15th, 2012, 09:48 PM   #39
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Interesting read here because I've gone from a 1911 .45 to a glock 23 .40 down to a M&P 9mm



I originally switched from the 45 because of ammo capacity and the gun needed daily maintenance.



I switched from the glock 23 .40 mainly because after having the m&p9 and shooting it for a while i realized that I was grouping even tighter then I ever had and that I could shoot rapidly and place all the rounds in the same place.



I can literally shoot 1" groups accurately and fast with the m&p and since then it has become my main carry weapon of choice for both duty and off duty.



But it was interesting to learn that almost all armed forces and special forces use 9mm's for their sidearms!



Thanks for the semi-history lesson...
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Old May 16th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #40
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I think one reason for the use of the 9mm as a military cartridge is its world wide availability. For a U.S. soldier in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.., they can always find some form of 9mm if the situation separated them from thier normal supply lines. I think the .40 would be out of the question and the old .45 would probably also.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #41
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The Navy SEAL's can and do get anything they want... Their caliber of choice? Still the 9mm.
I thought Navy SEALs were required to follow NATO rules too, which would mean they have either 9mm or 45 ACP as a choice (and a few oddball calibers). That would tend to make your entire argument moot. If we consider civilian police depts., which are not limited to NATO rules, many have switched or are switching from both 9mm and 45 ACP to 40 S&W and few have gone back, reportedly for financial reasons.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #42
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, many have switched or are switching from both 9mm and 45 ACP to 40 S&W and few have gone back, reportedly for financial reasons.
9mm ammo is less expensive then .40.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #43
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Yah, as far as police are concerned, it is very hard to argue against 16 rounds of .40



Stopping power near a .45 and capacity of the 9's.



Inherently less accurate than both the 9 and the 45, but for our distances and purposes...who cares?
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Old May 16th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #44
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Inherently less accurate than both the 9 and the 45...
That's the second time you've said this, do you have an unbiased source for tbis information? I have no problem with 40 S&W accuracy, outshooting 9mm more often than not.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:09 PM   #45
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No, I can't cite the sources now.



the .40's supposed lower level of accuracy is based on my readings about the cartridge from a ransom rest, not from a hand held firing platform. From time to time, I see articles that compare the round to the other big two in stopping power, accuracy etc...







Having said that, the .40 is far more accurate than most shooters can deploy it.
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