Issued Duty Rounds - MP-Pistol Forum

Issued Duty Rounds

This is a discussion on Issued Duty Rounds within the Law Enforcement forums, part of the Armory category; Ok, we have a stickied thread on which agencies have adopted the M&P. How about a similar thread on the ammunition used by LE agencies ...


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Old November 8th, 2007, 05:21 PM   #1
 
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Issued Duty Rounds

Ok, we have a stickied thread on which agencies have adopted the M&P. How about a similar thread on the ammunition used by LE agencies nationwide?



New York City - 9x19mm, Speer 124 gr. Gold Dot +P



I also read Massad Ayoob's column in the new Combat Handguns that notes the Chicago PD has recently adopted Winchester's 127 gr. Ranger-T load for their 9mm's.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #2
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It often varies based on budget restrictions or by what ammo is currently available. The ammo a department uses is not as consistent as which pistols they issue/approve.



LAPD, LASD, and San Diego PD, San Jose PD, and RCMP have issued 9mm Winchester Ranger-T RA9T 147gr. I assume they still do.



The CHP uses 180gr but the actual brand may vary due to factors such as the lowest bid, etc. I understand that generally it has been a Winchester or sometimes Remington product.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 07:16 AM   #3
 
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North Carolina Division of Community Corrections (Probation and Parole)- 180 grain JHP by policy, currently the brand issued is Remington. I doubt the state will ever issue premium ammo like Ranger-T, Gold Dot, etc.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 08:36 AM   #4
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Detroit PD: .40 cal 165 grain EFMJ.



Oakland County Sheriff's Department: .40 cal Gold Dot (but I don't know what grain).



I don't know what the other agencies use around here. I do know that the DPD is very dissatisfied with the EFMJ.



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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:48 PM   #5
 
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Originally Posted by MI_Jester
Detroit PD: .40 cal 165 grain EFMJ.



I don't know what the other agencies use around here. I do know that the DPD is very dissatisfied with the EFMJ.


Interesting. I'm kind of surprised a large force such as Detroit would issue a "gimmick round" like the EFMJ. Can you elaborate on the dissatisfaction?
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Old November 9th, 2007, 04:44 PM   #6
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The largest federal law enforcement agency (contrary to their own belief it is not the FBI) this year is using Federal Classic 9MM 115 grain "HI-SHOCK" JHP.
 
Old November 9th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jdh
The largest federal law enforcement agency (contrary to their own belief it is not the FBI) this year is using Federal Classic 9MM 115 grain "HI-SHOCK" JHP.


OK, I'm stumped. I would have guessed that the largest Federal law enforcement agency was CBP (with over 30,000 armed personnel). They use .40's.



Or maybe you could say US Coast Guard, since they play a major law enforcement role nowadays and are part of Homeland Security with close to 40,000.



When the FBI says they're the largest, I think they mean in terms of 1811's. They have more 1811's (criminal investigators) than any other agency, last I knew.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 05:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justbill
Interesting. I'm kind of surprised a large force such as Detroit would issue a "gimmick round" like the EFMJ. Can you elaborate on the dissatisfaction?


Detroit is not allowed to use hollow point ammo because it is too dangerous and might hurt someone. The department was sued (or threatened) because it was a mostly white force with a mostly black populace. It was implied that it was racist to use hollowpoint ammunition. Really. So the department can not use hollowpoint ammo even though the force is mostly African-American officers now. I attached an article from the Detroit News that talks about the controversy. They won and Detroit was never issued Hollow Point ammo.



Since they have been using the EFMJ, there are two publicized instances where they had the round bounce off of someone's head and another get caught in a winter coat. I haven't checked to see what they have been issued in the past 6 months or so, but I do know that they have been using EFMJ.



===============Detroit News=============



The Criminal Protection League cries out in protest.

http://www.detnews.com/2000/metro/0008/02/d01-99468.htm



Police get deadly ammo

Detroit cops say hollow-point rounds protect bystanders. Critics plan to protest decision



By George Hunter / The Detroit News



DETROIT -- A stipulation in the new Detroit police contract that allows officers to use hollow-point bullets has some residents and city officials up in arms, but police say the new bullets are safer than the ammunition in use.

Hollow-point bullets expand on impact, which can seriously damage internal organs. Because of the damage the bullets can inflict, they remain outlawed under the Geneva Convention's rules of war.

If hollow-point bullets are potentially too damaging to be used in wars, they shouldn't be used by Detroit police, said Ron Scott, director of the Detroit Coalition Against Police Brutality. Scott said the organization is planning a demonstration against the use of hollow-point ammunition.

"By using hollow-point bullets, the Detroit Police Department has thrown down the gauntlet," Scott said. "It's a statement that they're not going to just try to stop someone until the danger is over. The point is to destroy, maim and kill."

But most Metro Detroit police departments -- including Grosse Pointe, West Bloomfield Township, Livonia, Michigan State Police and the Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County sheriff's departments -- already use hollow-point bullets, which the departments call limited-penetration, full-expansion bullets. Most big city police departments, including New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco, use hollow-point ammunition.

Hollow-point bullets are safer than the standard bullet, known as full metal jacket bullets, currently employed by Detroit police because hollow-point bullets are less likely to pass through the intended target and strike an innocent bystander, said Rich Weaver, secretary and treasurer of the Detroit Police Officer's Association. Hollow-point bullets are much less likely to pass through a body because they expand on impact.

"The full-metal jacket bullets often go clean through a person's body with enough force to cause damage to other people," said Weaver, who researched different types of ammunition two years ago for the police department. "With hollow-points, there's less risk of innocent people being hurt."

Another problem with the standard bullet is that it makes a clean wound, and the person who is shot often can continue to fight, Weaver said.

"It's not like the police are going around shooting innocent people," Weaver said. "And when we do have a reason to shoot somebody, we want them to be incapacitated as quickly as possible. Hollow-points serve that purpose."

But Detroit Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel said she strongly opposes hollow-point bullets because, if police do mistakenly shoot someone, it's likely to result in death.

"We just settled a case where the police went into a man's house and arrested him by mistake," Cockrel said. "He wasn't shot -- but what if he had been? The chances of him dying from a hollow-point bullet would be much greater."

While Cockrel said she appreciates the dangers that Detroit police face every day, "they do make mistakes sometimes. And, then, if you issue hollow-point bullets, you're likely to have another grieving mother and father at a funeral."



Council blocked hollow-points

The Detroit Police Commission approved the use of hollow-point bullets in January 1999. But the Commission's approval was rendered void when the city council refused to allow the city to buy the ammunition.

Cockrel said she plans to fight the issuance of hollow-point ammunition again.

"I'm looking into whether or not the arbitrator's decision (allowing hollow-point bullets to be used) is legally binding, or if it's still something that can be challenged," Cockrel said. "If there is a way to legally challenge this, I'm going to vote against it. You can take that to the bank."

Detroit police aren't carrying the new ammunition yet. Chief Benny Napoleon must approve the bullets before his officers can use them. In the past, Napoleon has strongly supported the use of hollow-point bullets.

The Detroit Police Officers Association has recommended two types of hollow-point bullets for approval: The Winchester partial gold round; and the CCI-Speer gold dot, both for use in .40-caliber Glocks.

"Those bullets expand less than other hollow-points," Weaver said. "But they still create a large enough wound channel to effectively stop a criminal."



Brass back hollow-points

Several Detroit police officers welcomed the arbitrator's decision to allow hollow-points.

"If the department supplies the hollow-points, I will use them," said Sgt. T.J. Smoot, a 30-year-veteran.

Police spokesman Octaveious Miles said he'll likely use a combination of hollow-point bullets and full-metal jacket ammunition.

"Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets."

Officers in suburban police departments said it's time for Detroit cops to begin using hollow-point bullets.

"It's long overdue," Farmington Hills Police Chief William Dwyer said. "It's a safer bullet. There has been some debate about them because the injury can be more severe to the person who is wounded by a hollow-point. But police officers only fire, only use deadly force, in order to kill. We don't fire our weapons to wound."



Bullets stir controversy

The controversy of hollow-point bullets isn't confined to Detroit. In New York, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was sharply criticism when he announced that New York cops would be issued hollow-point bullets a few days after Amadou Diallo, an unarmed street vendor, was shot 19 times by four New York police officers.

In response to the criticism, Giuliani said that if the police had used hollow-point bullets, they wouldn't have had to shoot Diallo as many times.

When Los Angeles police were allowed to use hollow-point bullets in 1990, legal challenges to stop the issuance of the ammunition failed.

New York transit police were issued hollow-point ammunition in 1990. Since then, only one person has been hit by a hollow-point bullet passing through the body of the intended victim. That compares with 17 bystanders who were hit during that time by full-metal jacket bullets that passed through the bodies of people shot by police.

But according to a 1989 study published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, 80 percent of the shots fired in police shoot-outs miss their targets.

"More often than not, police miss what they're shooting at," Scott said. "That means an innocent bystander is more likely to be killed if the police are using hollow-points."

Hollow-point bullets have been controversial for more than a century. During the Hague Disarmament Conference of 1899, representatives of 26 nations decided to disallow the use of hollow-point bullets during wartime. The subsequent Versailles and Geneva peace treaties also outlawed the use of the ammunition.



Detroit News Staff Writer David G. Grant and Mike Martindale contributed to this report.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:26 PM   #9
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While Cockrel said she appreciates the dangers that Detroit police face every day, "they do make mistakes sometimes. And, then, if you issue hollow-point bullets, you're likely to have another grieving mother and father at a funeral."


Clearly not too concerned if it's the mother & father of a police officer killed because he was inadequately armed.





Quote:
The Winchester partial gold round


Man, I heard that stuff is the cat's a**!
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Old November 9th, 2007, 07:02 PM   #10
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Remember that article is from 2000... so we may want to get back on track. What do other agencies shoot?



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Old November 10th, 2007, 05:20 AM   #11
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdh
The largest federal law enforcement agency (contrary to their own belief it is not the FBI) this year is using Federal Classic 9MM 115 grain "HI-SHOCK" JHP.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is the largest Federal LE agency if it isn't FBI?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 05:23 AM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MI_Jester
Since they have been using the EFMJ, there are two publicized instances where they had the round bounce off of someone's head and another get caught in a winter coat. I haven't checked to see what they have been issued in the past 6 months or so, but I do know that they have been using EFMJ.


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Old November 10th, 2007, 05:33 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by ToddG
OK, I'm stumped. I would have guessed that the largest Federal law enforcement agency was CBP (with over 30,000 armed personnel). They use .40's.


They issue a 155-grain load IIRC. Is there a specific brand?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 07:23 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by justbill
[quote name='ToddG']

OK, I'm stumped. I would have guessed that the largest Federal law enforcement agency was CBP (with over 30,000 armed personnel). They use .40's.


They issue a 155-grain load IIRC. Is there a specific brand?[/quote]



They've used both Remington and Federal 155gr JHPs (standard JHPs, not Golden Saber, HST, etc). They do ammo contracts on a regular basis and pick whichever gives the best performance to their specifications at the best price, so it won't always be the exact same load from the exact same manufacturer.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 03:51 PM   #15
 
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I believe the largst federal law enforcement agency is the Bureau of Prisons.



Rockville (MD) PD issues 165 grain Federal Hyda-Shok. I hope to transition to something better with the next purchase.
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