TOF

They did poorly in my water jug tests several years back. I like Speer Gold Dots. FWIW

simms75

thanks, always carried hydroshok or pdx1's was looking to get a little angrier round, if they make one, besides the fangface

Jordan4

The non bonded golden sabers are notorious for jacket separation and hollow point cavity clogging. Im not sure what caliber you are interested in but if you do get the golden saber I would ONLY get the bonded version as the unbonded version does not always reliably expand or perform well. Personally I think from a reliability stand point considering both feeding and bullet performance that the hornady critical defense is probably the best load you can get however in some calibers it does not offer ideal bullet weights or velocities. The .40 critical defense however is perfect in my book. What caliber are you considering this for?

KRWeiss

Hornady's Critical Defense is one very small step above Golden Saber, there are many others which are much more consistant in both penetration and expansion, e.g. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger-T/PDX-1, and my current favorite... Federal's HST. DocGKR (the actual expert on defensive ammo effectiveness) has addressed this a number of times, it couldn't hurt to look over his findings, again.

Jordan4

Im new here and dont know who that is. Im not entirely sure what makes you think critical defense is so marginally different from golden saber. I have never seen a test including my own in any media where a critical defense has failed to expand or had its hollowpoint cavity clogged ( nearly impossible with rubber insert ). Not to mention Critical defenses extremley tappered bullet and its inherintley better feeding. On the other hand I have seen many many failures of golden saber in all shapes and sizes.

jasonuscg

"Ha! Ha! Critical Defense... Throw it in the trash along with the Cor-Bon "Pow'R Ball, Mag Safe, & Glaser Safety Slug.

A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
FirearmsTactical.com: TacticalBriefs, April 2006

digilo

I shoot the +P 124 Golden Saber, as I like the ME figures on it. Hornady ammo was the one type out of 7 I tried in my 9c that jammed- Hornady steel case HAP ammo - had both FTF and FTE issues with it- Speer, Winchester, Remington, AE, all fed fine and proved reliable.

Jordan4

Just because you tried the cheapest ammo hornady makes ( HAP ) which has absolutley nothing in common with the Critical defense does not by any means suggest that another hornady product will not work. Besides that stuff has non laquered steel cases which are horrible for feeding. You absolutley cannot rule out a cartridge because you tried a completley different one from the same manufacter and it didnt work. For every different cartridge design there are several variables that will dictate how well it performs and one of them is not its manufacter ( unless your talking about cheap stuff like Tula which some people have great luck with. )
I hope you have the bonded version of the golden saber or else you may experience bullet failures similar to this Remington Golden Saber .40 S&W 180 gr JHP Test with Denim - YouTube ( I know its not 9mm but couldnt find a video for a non bonded 9mm in your bullet weight.

I do not know how you are concluding that critical defense is in the same category as Pow'rBall. Power ball sheds its jacket EVERYTIME and the core barley expands. I wont even waste time talking about Glaser. Critical defense Is a reliable feeder penetrator and expander. If I was worried about barrier penetration I would carry 127gr double tap or buffalo bore .357 sig FMJ. For that matter may as well pull out the tokarev if Im planning on shooting through stuff. As far as I am concerned none of the common service calibers have good barrier penetration regardless of bullet type and discounting a very credible bullet because some article said it would be bad at barrier penetration I think is a mistake. Besides most people dont want something thats ganna go through two walls and a flatscreen and potentially endager their loved ones in a potential home defense scenerio. I think you will find that barrier penetration is of very little concern when you are considering non tactical applications such as home defense. Besides all that article is doing is speculating that because it has not been tested agianst common barriers that somehow that means that it will perform below average. Im not sure exactley where they are concluding how poor of a barrier penetrator it is without referencing any tests. Regardless of bullet design I am confident of any 165 grain peice of lead going over 1100 fps ability to penetrate a car door or window. In the rare event that you do have to shoot through such barriers you will most likely be firing at them numerous times. Lets say magicly you dont penetrate the first. You dont think that 2 or 3 more shots are ganna be stopped by a car window do you?

KRWeiss

I get that you're a very outspoken fan of Hornady ammo (as misguided as that may be), but there's a reason it's not on DocGKR's list, and if it's not on his list it's not in my gun (and probably shouldn't be in yours either).

My choice doesn't rest on a youtube video done with water jugs in some random person's backyard, especially since I can find a number of youtube videos that come to exactly the opposite conclusion.

jasonuscg

Example...

Left to Right: .38 SPL - Gold Dot, DPX, Critical Defense

Top to Bottom Bare Geletin, 4-layers of denim

Oh look what the Hornady does with 4-layers of denim, it chokes...



The emotional investment into Hornady Critical Defense and the lack spell check makes the argument seem sad, pathetic. It is certainly not a convincing and articulate argument for Hornady.

Barley is something you eat!!!

digilo

Estimate 20 of the 50 Hornady rounds caused a malfunction in the M&P.

In a defensive handgun, the first priority is function. Ammo is no good if it doesn't function in the gun. Hornady HAP steel case did not work in my gun. If the jacket on the Golden Saber separates, it still achieves more than the Hornady round, which stays in the gun and causes a malfunction.

enjoy your kool-aid.....

Jordan4

Fair enough we all have our reasons. However I do not consider blind faith in somebody else's beliefs to be any better than visual evidence in a test regardless of how amateur it may be. There are tons of "experts out there" and half of them cant even agree with each other.

Sad and pathetic? Wow you really take this seriously. Great argument by the way or should I say great picture. Every bullet will fail its the rate at which it fails that is the concern. Ive seen gold dots plug up with denim and under expand. Since I did not see the test I cannot be certain of what variables were at play. Regardless I see no indication that denim was responsible for that bullets failure to expand as clearly the HP cavity was not plugged. Perhaps it was just a bad lot of ammo or its jacket thickness was out of spec or maybe the rubber insert wasn't secured and came out before impact. Or maybe it didn't get enough velocity to expand because it was one of those random low velocity shots that occur sometimes. Not to mention it does not say if it is the +p critical defense and I suspect it was shot out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel. We are not talking about .38 special ammo anyways. I could post several videos of that exact round expanding flawlessly through denim. Even your favorite bullet will fail at one time or the other. Oh and sorry I forgot to hit spell check however I am not entirely sure how that deflates my argument at all. I think you need to relax and stop name calling on anybody who disagrees with you. This isn't 2nd grade. Besides you have not made a single argument for yourself you have just copy and pasted everything.

I am not entirely sure you understand what I am trying to say. It doesn't matter if 50 out of 50 HAP rounds caused a malfunction. They are not critical defense! They are hornady's cheapest ammo. They did not fail just because they have the name hornady on the box. Non lacquered steel cases like I said are horrible for feeding. Or maybe your gun just doesn't like them regardless. None of this matters because they have absolutely nothing in common with critical defense. You cannot rule out an entire brands offerings because you had a bad experience with just one of there products especially if that one is the worst offering they have. That would be like saying you wouldn't drive a Z06 because you had a cavalier that did not drive well.

Jordan4

Just for fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0M4...0&feature=fvst

jasonuscg

Oh, I'm sorry, this is a house of eulogy.



I forgot, add Federal Guard Dog to the list of crap loads...

Jordan4

Most people have already put the cheap/obscure types of sd ammo on that list for themselves.

digilo

Yes, it would matter a great deal if 50 out of 50 HAP rounds caused a malfunction.

If they can't get the cheap stuff right, why would I believe they could get the expensive stuff right?

"Non lacquered steel cases like I said are horrible for feeding." If this is even remotely true, why does Hornady use a case that is known to be "horrible for feeding"? Why are they making ammo that won't feed?

All the other brands of target ammo shot just fine. If Hornady can't make target ammo right, why would I trust my life to their more expensive offerings?

Since you're stuck on car analogies, I'll use that: If Chevy can't get a Cavalier right, I sure wouldn't waste more money with them on something more expensive like a Z06.

Link to a thread where critical duty (lol) is tested....
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f65/wh...57/index4.html

Jordan4

Digilo you must be new to firearms. Some guns like certain ammo and some do not. If a particular round does not feed well in a firearm that says nothing about the quality of the ammo most of the time. All it says is your gun does not like that ammo. On the other hand If a high quality round has problems feeding in a particular gun than that is just not a good gun/ammo combo. It says nothing about the gun or the ammo. If you go feeding a bunch of modern SD cartridges to a war time p-38 or P08 and they don’t feed well than guess what? Those guns were designed for fmj and that’s what they shoot best. Some may function fine with HP but in general fmj was the only consideration when the pistol's were designed. You must not know a whole lot about cars either because if you opted against a ZO6 because of the way a cavalier drove than that would by far be the most ridiculous decision ever. Oh and yeah I am totally stuck on car analogies because I used one. Great job you found another picture of a critical defense that didn’t expand again with no information about the test regarding barrel length of test gun, chronograph velocity, or media it was fired into. Like I said every bullet out there will fail at one time or another. As for why hornady uses steel cases? Because they are cheap too manufacture and sell and in hornady's case used for their target ammo which under no circumstances is intended or recommended for SD.

Target ammo generally uses cheaper components sometimes in exchange for reliability. Again if this doesn’t make sense too you by now I am not sure anybody will ever get it through your head. ITS NOT MEANT FOR SELF DEFENSE AND COST NOT RELIABILITY IS THE KEY FACTOR. IF RELIABILTY MUST BE SACRIFICED TO KEEP THE COST DOWN THAN THAT IS A SACRIFICE THAT WILL BE MADE AND GENERALLY ACCEPTED BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT TRUSTING YOUR LIFE ON IT. With that said I am sure there are plenty of people who run HAP just fine with no problems. Not because they have better guns but because their guns just like that particular ammo. Take this opportunity to learn. There is no reason to be so argumentative when you are new to firearms and have little experience.

Jordan4

Since your pictures lack any information about the variables of the tests and how they are conducted I will demonstrate some tests to the contrary.

Hornady Critical Defense .40 S&W 165 gr FTX: SIM-TEST* w/denim - YouTube

Hornady Critical Defense .380 ACP 90 gr Ammo Test - YouTube

.45 ACP Critical Defense Ballistics Gel Test - YouTube

If your going to choose ME over bullet performance than why aren’t you shooting double tap or buffalo bore? I think once you start learning more about terminal ballistics you will realize how insignificant a role muzzle energy plays when talking about service handgun calibers. ESPECIALLY when talking about 9mm. Not to mention I am not sure what M.E figures that you suggest that you like about it. Even at its advertised velocity it produces a marginal 383 ft/lbs and out of your 9c even lower. What are you comparing it too because those are very average to below average figures for a 9+P.

Oh and "lol" all you want. If you want to use single examples of a critical defense failing than here’s this right back at you. AMMO TEST: .380 ACP Remington Golden Saber 102 gr JHP - YouTube

Oh and if you read my original reply you would have noticed that I mentioned that I believe some critical defense calibers are not ideal bullets weights or velocities. The 9mm being one of those. Regardless however of those two variables it is a very good performing round and you just went out of your way to find examples of it failing. I guarantee you that If we did a side by side test given all the same variables that the un bonded golden saber will fail at a much higher rate than the critical defense. Golden saber uses a brass jacket as opposed to copper which is supposed to expand at a slower rate over a longer distance. Unfortunately that hard brass jacket has a reputation of failing to expand when fired at slower velocities ( out of your 9c ) and as you can see in the video posted is prone to clogging with denim/cloth being yet another reason for not expanding. I’m not saying it does this EVERYTIME but at a higher rate than most.

digilo

The jam-prone Hronady ammo fails to expand- I’m not saying it does this EVERYTIME but at a higher rate than most. So I'll take a separated jacket from Remington over a Hornady bullet stuck in the gun, one that won't expand if it does manage to leave the barrel.