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Apex?

This is a discussion on Apex? within the MP Compact Pistols forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I personally would AT LEAST recommend the USB, and polymer trigger. If you want to get into springs and all that, just make sure you ...


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Old December 7th, 2016, 12:15 AM   #16
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I personally would AT LEAST recommend the USB, and polymer trigger. If you want to get into springs and all that, just make sure you get to know your pistol. Also, I think the M&P CORE sear is the best one available.
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Old December 7th, 2016, 01:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
Some say that this type of thing never happens, but I have witnessed it here in my state on several occasions. Some call it paranoia...
Neither Lexis/Nexis nor Westlaw have any record of a good shoot ending in a conviction because of responsible weapon modifications. BTW, illegally converting a semi-automatic rifle to selective fire, and sub-4 lb pistol triggers, are generally not considered responsible modifications for defensive weapon.

Last edited by KRWeiss; December 7th, 2016 at 03:03 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2016, 09:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Rockets View Post
Mostly a myth that never stops, I work in the field in defense.

No matter how many mods you make the only real question (if you intended to shoot) is was the shooting justified under state statute.

In most states something of this ilk....

The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm.

(ignoring the castle rule and duty or lack of duty to retreat to avoid complexity)

No offense meant, it seems millions of people have spread this rumor.

Where mods could come in to play legally is a AD, if you have an accidental discharge and hurt or kill someone mods that lighten the trigger and so forth may lead a jury to find your actions negligent, in the case of death the could result in manslaughter.
Are you from here? Have you witnessed what can happen HERE? I didn't think so. Want to still believe it's a rumor? Go ahead. I didn't say anything about prosecutions. Changing your firearm even in a justified shooting will cost you mucho denaro defending why you did these things to your firearm. Bling if you desire.
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Old December 7th, 2016, 10:10 AM   #19
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Ill leave this here.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-modified-gun/


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Old December 7th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #20
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Changing your firearm even in a justified shooting will cost you mucho denaro defending why you did these things to your firearm. Bling if you desire.
I don't consider a Apex job "Bling".

I am not questioning your intelligence nor your beliefs, never was, my only intention was to expand peoples knowledge in this thread and aviod misconceptions.

Yes I did at one time practice in the area. Lived in Chicago but was licensed in the three state area.

A modified gun in a clean shooting is never the issue. A clean shooting AKA a legally justified shooting will not result in civil negligence (since you state we are not talking about prosecution which is a criminal case), if the shooting was not negligent, it does not matter what you did to the firearm.

If the plaintiff brings it up a simple objection will be upheld. It's this simple, you defended yourself or others, you had the legal right to do so, case closed, modifications do not change your legal right to defend yourself.

We have nexis, lexis per above and I will throw Westlaw in the mix.

So now we have covered both Criminal and Civil suits, those are the only two legal areas where one would have to defend a prior act.

Believe what you want, matters not to me, for others reading there was an earlier statement that a brand of hollow-point would be a disadvantage to a justified shooting. I feel it is important to know the facts in these days of increased concealed carry.

Ball ammo can get you in legal trouble due to over penetration issues where pass through's hit bystanders, hollow-points greatly reduce that danger. Ball ammo will have higher legal repercussions than hollow-points ever will.

We can all teach each other in the areas we know well, I have been wrong about some basic beliefs about certain guns and thank people that point out my misconceptions as my goal is to learn.

I view this place like a family, we all have areas we know like the back of our hand and others where we are just learning, combine the family knowledge and we are all better for it.

With the utmost respect,

Rockets.
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Old December 7th, 2016, 03:17 PM   #21
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I didn't say anything about prosecutions. .

Good to see I was not mistaken, from your post on the prior page.

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Always remember, any changes to a firearm past stock are real life fodder for any prosecutor.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 10:27 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Rockets View Post
Mostly a myth that never stops, I work in the field in defense.

No matter how many mods you make the only real question (if you intended to shoot) is was the shooting justified under state statute.

In most states something of this ilk....

The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm.

(ignoring the castle rule and duty or lack of duty to retreat to avoid complexity)

No offense meant, it seems millions of people have spread this rumor.

Where mods could come in to play legally is a AD, if you have an accidental discharge and hurt or kill someone mods that lighten the trigger and so forth may lead a jury to find your actions negligent, in the case of death the could result in manslaughter.
Anyone who calls a discharge of any kind " an accidental discharge" can say anything they want, and state case law all they want. Everyone knows that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, it's only/ always a negligent discharge. Someone like you should know better, no offense meant............................................. .I worked with a guy who's son was having some issues as a minor, with the law. He never had any violent issues. His father had a squeaky clean record and was a hunter and versed in firearms. The LE came, and removed every firearm in his house, and used his son's issues as a reason. The son and father went to hearings, the son paid his dues, and they should have given the guy his firearms back. No, instead, LE/DA play stall games for over 3 yrs. Illegal? Yes. What are you going to do about it? Nothing, unless you have lot's of money. He had some hunting rifles, shotguns, and two handguns, one old one that he didn't even know if it would function. These were all firearms with sentimental value, some previously owned by a grand father, and a father. If it weren't for sentimental value, he would have said keep them. It cost him over $5000 in legal fees and over three years to get them back. Oh, all except for one. The other handgun, which was blinged out, with trigger work and sights, and grips. They said that they lost it. Sure. Never compensated him for it, and were unapologetic about not returning his property that they kept illegally for over three years. Even though you may not be prosecuted for using a blinged out firearm, if the local DA so desires, like where I'm from, if he doesn't believe in a citizen being able to protect themselves( they call it being a vigilante) like where I'm from, especially a blinged out firearm, your blinged out firearm could cost you way more money to get back, than it cost to begin with. If you don't have the cash for an attorney, your blinged out firearm can sit in a evidence room for eternity. Just because your not prosecuted, it may not end there. Your nightmares could just be beginning. This kind of crap happens every day in this country. It's called abuse of power. So, if anyone wants to carry around a blinged out firearm, with exotic ammo, go for it. You may not be prosecuted, but I personally don't need the headache. I'll carry my plain jane M&P 40C, with stock trigger, and stock sights, and ammo that says defense on the box, and if I am ever involved in a shooting, I won't give the DA any more than needed, and I'll tell them to keep the firearm when they play their games. In most defensive shootings, you won't remember your Apex trigger, and your night sights, or your Cadillac super bullets. IMHO, in a carry firearm, your just wasting your money. Does it look good??????? Oh yeah.............will it make any difference if you have to shoot someone.............. doubt it.

Last edited by berettabone; December 28th, 2016 at 10:38 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #23
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I've practiced since 1993 and have a juris doctorate, your neighbor story and your claims a modified gun can somehow change a justified shooting into an unjustified one are ludicrous, if you want a second qualified legal opinion there is a video in this thread by a well known firearms attorney that also rebuts your spurious claims. I am sure that there are things you are very well versed in which you could teach me, the law is not one of these. A wise man knows when to learn and when to argue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
Anyone who calls a discharge of any kind " an accidental discharge" can say anything they want, and state case law all they want. Everyone knows that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, it's only/ always a negligent discharge. Someone like you should know better, no offense meant............................................. .
Quite a subject change, it's always interesting finding a layman who thinks they know the law through second hand stories. You are wrong on the above, a AD occurs when the handler discharges a round without intention of doing so, a ND is a question for the jury (was the accidental discharge a result of the operators negligent.) An accidental discharge is general term and a negligent discharge is a legal term. An accidental discharge is NOT always a negligent discharge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
I worked with a guy who's son was having some issues as a minor, with the law. He never had any violent issues. His father had a squeaky clean record and was a hunter and versed in firearms. The LE came, and removed every firearm in his house, and used his son's issues as a reason. The son and father went to hearings, the son paid his dues, and they should have given the guy his firearms back. ...... If you don't have the cash for an attorney, your blinged out firearm can sit in a evidence room for eternity.
False or a total fluke, They only confiscate guns because someone in the home is mentally unstable and then they must return them all. Either he was still a danger or all guns are to be returned. One can easily get the firearm or it's worth back in small claims court with all cost paid by the loser. You state they only kept the blinged one? Cake, the judge has placed a order of restitution for the firearms to be returned to the owner. Produce it in small claims court. If the restitution of the firearm is not possible the judge will order restitution in the value of the firearm and it won't cost you a thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
So, if anyone wants to carry around a blinged out firearm, with exotic ammo, go for it. You may not be prosecuted, but I personally don't need the headache. I'll carry my plain jane M&P 40C, with stock trigger, and stock sights, and ammo that says defense on the box, and if I am ever involved in a shooting, ...... In most defensive shootings, you won't remember your Apex trigger, and your night sights, or your Cadillac super bullets. IMHO, in a carry firearm, your just wasting your money. Does it look good??????? Oh yeah.............will it make any difference if you have to shoot someone.............. doubt it.
Looks good?, I really can't see my hollow points or my Apex trigger, sometimes my x-ray vision fails. I also contend night sights do not improve the appearance of a firearm but enhance shooter performance in low light conditions.



On that note if you consider a trigger job, good hollow points and night sights bling more power to you, I would call them improvements. I wonder why cops bling up millions of pistols with those crazy night sights and hollow points, perhaps to impress the homies?

Respectfully,
Rockets

Last edited by Rockets; January 11th, 2017 at 01:23 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 02:38 PM   #24
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Rockets, not to gang up on you, but if a gun was "lost" in evidence (stolen by the cops) it can't be returned. Yeah, I know everything taken into evidence always gets returned in a perfect world. Unless a cop has an eye for it and it disappears in this world.

It's good to read the "voice of reason" regarding the rest. It's what I always thought but never had credibility enough to write. So when in doubt erring on the side of caution is what I always did, I figured it might also save a few bucks in my defense. In that regard I know about twitches and lack of fine motor control under stress so I have always suggested to people that they have a higher poundage trigger in their carry guns as compared to competition guns. Yes, I also practice what I preach. It's not law but human physiology that makes a bit heavier trigger sensible. Not a bad trigger, just a bit heavier break on the trigger. I never tested my triggers, but my comp' trigger is sweet and my EDC gun is heavier but still with a good break for a striker fired gun (neither one approaches a John Browning designed trigger though).

Anyway, it's good to know that it's easily defended against. Hopefully it'll never come up at all. That's by far the best possibility but we need to be ready for the worst.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:05 PM   #25
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That's where the previous restitution order comes in, often it does not even require legal action, one talks to the judge. Since there was a restitution order for return of the firearms issues by the judge all one needs to do is ask the judge to demand the PD either return the firearm or he will issue a restitution order for the value of the firearm.

I did mention it in the above post. "If the restitution of the firearm is not possible the judge will order restitution in the value of the firearm and it won't cost you a thing." but often legal writing is as confusing to others as a electrical engineer trying to explain something to me. Sometimes I need to slow it down and think of the audience I am addressing which is in no means a slam.

The judge issued an order for restitution of the firearms or they would not have been returned as they were taken via court order, judges are not happy when their orders are not followed. Likely a restitution order for compensation of the missing firearm would happen that day.

(Normally the judge calls the PD and demands they produce the firearm or a order of restitution for the value will be issued by the end of the day, perhaps a bit longer if value must be independently determined due to mods or rarity).

But hey, thanks for keeping it civil, I never mind being challenged in a polite way, I just am not a fan of people moving the goal post trying to be "win" instead of determining the truth which benefits us all.

PS: My biggest flaw is writing this stuff fast as if I am talking to a judge or an attorney. It's hard to snap out of that mode when you are in it daily.

Respectfully and with much appreciation.

Rockets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
Rockets, not to gang up on you, but if a gun was "lost" in evidence (stolen by the cops) it can't be returned. Yeah, I know everything taken into evidence always gets returned in a perfect world. Unless a cop has an eye for it and it disappears in this world.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #26
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Apex is #1 in my own opinion.
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Old January 13th, 2017, 10:10 AM   #27
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Get it! Once you do, you will get it for your future M&Ps.
I have them in 6 of my 7 M&Ps. They don't make one to the M&P22 compact. Otherwise, it would have an Apex kit also!
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Old January 17th, 2017, 01:52 PM   #28
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I just installed the Apex flat trigger Fwd Sear on my new M&P 9c last week. I also have a SIG p238 and love that trigger so tried this one to emulate it. It is very close like the 1911s.
Wasn't that hard to install with regular hand tools and a block of wood with a hole drilled in it to drive out the roll pins.
Overall, very happy with the trigger and Installation.
Bought it from Mid West for around $150.with on line coupon.

Last edited by lachambers; January 17th, 2017 at 01:54 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2017, 12:55 PM   #29
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Installed the flat faced forward set sear & trigger kit with the ram and am only getting about 4.5 lbs. Was expecting at least under 4. Installed the silver spring, not the green.
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Old February 15th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=Rockets;485825]I've practiced since 1993 and have a juris doctorate, your neighbor story and your claims a modified gun can somehow change a justified shooting into an unjustified one are ludicrous, if you want a second qualified legal opinion there is a video in this thread by a well known firearms attorney that also rebuts your spurious claims. I am sure that there are things you are very well versed in which you could teach me, the law is not one of these. A wise man knows when to learn and when to argue.



Quite a subject change, it's always interesting finding a layman who thinks they know the law through second hand stories. You are wrong on the above, a AD occurs when the handler discharges a round without intention of doing so, a ND is a question for the jury (was the accidental discharge a result of the operators negligent.) An accidental discharge is general term and a negligent discharge is a legal term. An accidental discharge is NOT always a negligent discharge.


False or a total fluke, They only confiscate guns because someone in the home is mentally unstable and then they must return them all. Either he was still a danger or all guns are to be returned. One can easily get the firearm or it's worth back in small claims court with all cost paid by the loser. You state they only kept the blinged one? Cake, the judge has placed a order of restitution for the firearms to be returned to the owner. Produce it in small claims court. If the restitution of the firearm is not possible the judge will order restitution in the value of the firearm and it won't cost you a thing.


Looks good?, I really can't see my hollow points or my Apex trigger, sometimes my x-ray vision fails. I also contend night sights do not improve the appearance of a firearm but enhance shooter performance in low light conditions.



On that note if you consider a trigger job, good hollow points and night sights bling more power to you, I would call them improvements. I wonder why cops bling up millions of pistols with those crazy night sights and hollow points, perhaps to impress the homies?

Respectfully,
Rockets[/ I am a rocket scientist. You can be anything you want on the internet, even a lawyer. The only time I dispute a supposed expert is when they are wrong. I WILL REPEAT, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE. IT IS ALWAYS NEGLIGENCE. I REPEAT, IT IS ALWAYS NEGLIGENCE. IT MAY MATTER TO WHAT DEGREE, BUT IT IS ALWAYS NEGLIGENCE. IT MEANS THAT IF THE FIREARM GOES OFF WHILE IN YOUR CUSTODY, I DON'T CARE IF IT WAS THE WIND, YOU FELL AND IT WENT OFF, YOUR NEIGHBOR TOUCHED THE TRIGGER, WHATEVER THE REASON, IF YOU WERE IN POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM, AND IT GOES OFF, YOU WERE NEGLIGENT IN IT'S HANDLING PERIOD. GUNS ONLY GO OFF WHEN SOMEONE INTENTIONALLY WANTS IT TO GO OFF, OR ARE NEGLIGENT IN IT'S HANDLING AND IT GOES OFF. NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENT. In the firearm world, accident is the event. Negligence is the cause.

Last edited by berettabone; February 15th, 2017 at 03:46 PM.
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