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mag release issues

This is a discussion on mag release issues within the MP Pistol Tech Help forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I had a problem with my mag release so S&W sent me the new updated one. I installed the new one and it was no ...


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Old July 2nd, 2007, 12:27 PM   #16
 
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I had a problem with my mag release so S&W sent me the new updated one. I installed the new one and it was no better than the original. I called S&W this morning and the fella I spoke with was not surprised at all, he stated that something needed to be beefed up and he did not have an answer to the issue and did not know when the problem would be addressed. I told him the spring needed to be stronger and the metal lip on the release needed to be longer, he agreed. I asked him what my options were, he stated I could send it back and let them look at it. I declined, there is obviously an issue they can't address until the release is redisigned. For what it is worth one was marked with a number 1 and the other was marked with a number 2.



techguy
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 07:06 PM   #17
 
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I got my 40c back last week and the first thing i noticed as with my 40 fullsize whne i got it back is that the magazine has to be pushed in harder otherwise it wont go in. I myself have put a 1000 rounds through my fullsize since i got it back and no probs.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 07:06 AM   #18
 
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I'm new to this forum and new to the M&P9 as well.



I picked up my new M&P9 last Wednesday. On sat I put about 50 rounds through it without any problems.



I holstered the gun in my Desantis Viper and walked back to the bench where I found the mag unlatched. I chalked it up to me hitting the release.



On monday I had the scare of my life. While carrying loaded all morning, I stopped for lunch. Afterwards, I got back into the car and being a fat guy, had to adjust the position of the holster to accommodate the seatbelt. At that time I found that the Mag was gone. Sacred me to death that a loaded mag was laying around for some kid to find. Well after a three hour search retracing my steps I found it.



I am not a gunsmith nor do I pretend to have the experience that many of you have but I do have a high level of mechanical and machining experience. I would have to say that the problem lies in the minimal distance the release button needs to be pushed to release the catch. The distance required relates the the engagement distance on the mag. A simple solution would seem to be a longer metal tab for a deep engagement but this might start to interfere with the ammo. A stronger spring may help make it harder to release but it will not reduce the distance required.



The design is faulty in my opinion. A remedy may not be possible unless it involves a change to the Mag (again IMO). My thoughts on this involve the 45 deg bevels on the front of the mag where the release catch engages. If the mag did not have this bevel and was square in this area, the catch would engage over double the distance that it does now making the distance needed to push the button much greater. Of course without the bevel, mag fit and release may be affected. Some compromise in the bevel shape, angle, etc. would need to be made to eliminate the inadvertent release of the mag.



I'm going to get an extra mag or two to experiment with. I have a couple of ideas, some simple and other not so simple. I'll let you know I find something that works.



Ted



Update:



Just got back from my dealer. The counter guy was giving a bunch of excuses and said he would send it back a 100 times till it was fixed to my satisfaction. I told him that was unsatisfactory. The owner came out and asked what was the problem I was having. I told him and he asked to see the gun. I handed it to him and the mag fell to the floor. I just smiled.



He then told me that they he had purchased 100 of these mp9's and 5 out of 12 were having the same problem. He told me that he had another batch of parts coming in and would replace the mag release as soon as they came in. Guess we will have to see.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 12:17 PM   #19
 
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It's just a matter of time...

Hi TAG1737 and welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of your experiences.



In reading your post, my "It's just a matter of time before it happens at the worst possible moment..." Murphy voice in my head was shouting at me. Glad to hear that nobody got hurt or in trouble, for that matter! I cringe at the thought of the "what ifs" of what could have potentially happened to you otherwise.



This issue is so frustrating for me as well, because in just about every other respect, I absolutely love my three M&P pistols. I want to (someday) be able to carry my compacts as my CCW weapons with the absolute confidence that the magazines will release only when I want them to, especially when they're holstered or being fired. It just pains me to even think about having to trade them in for something else.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 01:15 PM   #20
 
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My M&P 40c is back from S&W after 2 weeks. Not a bad turn around in my opinion. I hopefully will be able to shoot this weekend and check out the mag release button. I was having an issue with the button being to sensitive and the recoil and my thumb was causing the mag to fall out. I will update after I go shooting.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #21
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I've mentioned my problems with the mag catch on my 40C in other threads, but I'll chime in here as apparently the other threads on the topic are being shut down to consolidate all the complaints into just this thread.



For the benefit of those who are interested in learning about this problem, mine didn't show up until I had around 300 rounds through the gun. S&W sent a call tag for it, had the gun a couple of weeks and returned it to me with a new mag catch in it. After several hundred rounds, the second mag catch started dropping mags. I called S&W. They told me the metal engagement tab on many of the catches wasn't hard enough and they were being worn out quickly by the mags. He said he was sending me a new catch that he was certain had been properly anodized for correct hardness. I put it in my gun and had failures (mag drops) nearly right away. I called S&W yet again and they issued another call tag. They're trying to make it right, but they don't seem to have a solution as yet.



I mentioned to the S&W agent that I felt the mag catch spring was too weak, allowing disengagement with the lightest touch. I also mentioned that the engagement depth of the catch seemed too shallow... just the slightest depression on the mag catch button dropped the mag. Lastly I mentioned that the mag catch button seemed a little too prominent - making it a little too easy to disengage. He said they might need to install a stiffer spring, but thought that perhaps the spring was molded into the frame and that it might require a new frame just to get a stronger spring. That seemed really odd to me... couldn't the spring simply be inserted down into the frame rather than molded into it??? He didn't know. (That surprised me too.) I asked that my frame be replaced if that would be what it would take to put these problems behind me. I have no use for a carry gun that can and sometimes does drop mags unexpectedly.



Some who have never had the problem poo-poo the complaints about it, but let this happen to you - seemingly without a permanent fix - and then see how much you love the M&P. TO me the other aspects of the gun are wonderful... it's an awesome design and I really like shooting it - but until the mag drop problem goes away permanently, I am very leery of using an M&P for carry/defense use.



When I finally get my M&P back, I will need to experience at least 1000 trouble free rounds before I can even begin to start trusting the gun for utter reliability/carry duty. And damn it, this kind of extended reliability testing is really EXPENSIVE!!! 1000 rounds is going to cost me around $300!!! I've already put around $500 worth of ammo through it to get to this point... now another $300 or so before I'll feel fairly confident that the problem may not rear it's ugly head yet again. And if it should re-occur yet again, I think I will have given it the utmost in patience and worked it through about as much as I am willing to do. Yep, I'm a voluntary beta-tester. Early adopters, leading-edge buyers ("bleeding-edge", some would call it) sometimes bear this type of burden. But I won't do it indefinitely.



Sooner or later, I think S&W will get this solved, but for now they seem to be poking around trying a few different things, without really nailing the problem. It may well be that the gun or magazine or both require a bit of a redesign to ensure that the mag drop problem goes away. But of course such a re-design would create quite a problem for them vis-a-vis all the existing models out there that might need to be replaced. They've certainly got a serious problem here, seemingly without easy solutions. First thing I would do is put a stiffer mag catch spring in all the guns and reduce the prominence of the mag catch thumb pad. I had my mag drop out while mexican carrying... the slightest touch on the mag catch button released the mag. This is something that has never happened with any of my other semi-autos, no matter how they were carried.



I'm looking forward to the permanent solution of this problem for all M&P's, not just my own sample.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #22
 
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Mag drop issue started after 220+ rds in my M&P 40...Called S&W today to request service. I ship the gun to them on Monday so we'll wait and see what happens.



7/6/07 - My return label was emailed to me today and M&P was mailed a few hours later. I'll update again when my M&P returns...I think it's time for a Rev. O
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:49 AM   #23
 
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Dear sirs at S&W,

This documentary, which seems more like a clause than anything, is primarily targeted for the S&W scopers and readers in this forum and/or affiliated experts, assesors, or equivalent. I'd posted this elsewhere, but from what I've read thus far, has led me to post it here.

___________________



After having read endless cries for help about mag catches and/or jammed casings or whatever other essential flaws, I would think it's safe to say that, the fact that there are a great number [again, from what I've read], of fullsizes and compacts out there that are working flawlessly - does not justify this big a batch of ones that don't; not this late in the pistol game at least.



Yes, every gun may and will experience shortcomings, glitches, imperfections, the need for refinements, and evolve into a better weapon as time goes by, but no matter how much testing any company conducts or employs on any given gun, it is extremely difficult if not impossible, to emulate or exceed dynamic diverse REAL-Life testing. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of shooters now, limp wristing, substandard loads, improper care and maintenance, subzero/humid/hot weather conditions mixed with endless pH inbalances, loaned it to my 1st time shooting neighbor who dropped a wrong caliber round in, dog chewed the mag, the list goes on - you simply can't cover every scenario that can and will exist - this is where the Real Do-or-Die testing takes place. It is equally impossible to expect any company including but not limited to S&W, to undergo the grueling task of attempting to replicate these scenarios - that's what the end-user's for - which has led us here, to M&P Pistol Tech Difficulties. There seems to be a problem with the digestion of our feedbacks and misfortunes in writing, however...



Here's a scary question: Could the flawless-to-flawed ratio possibly break even if this continues? Nah right? How about: How much more negative publicity can S&W take before it starts making a dent on their reputation for reliability? Here's a good one: What happens when Glock releases a new "ergonomic" model that no longer requires trigger-play to field strip? Another good questiong is: Which would cost more, a calculated recall or blatant defilement of S&W's new "hope" to all polymer-kind? Enough with the "repaired" or "replaced/new" components that continue to fail for Wesson's sake.



Possible resolution? Maybe S&W should consider replacing lowers/uppers accordingly as they see fit, instead of simply swapping out a mag catch, or a spring, or whatever the case. If it continues to jam or suffer from FTE, new upper, if the mags bail, maybe a new lower. Think of it not as giving parts away, but as savings on the s&h from volleyballing guns back and forth and spending all that production on techs reviewing the SAME guns over and over. Besides, when has a company had more fun with insurance than keeping their customers happy with awesome guns, all the whilst maintaining their Sterling Reputation - all in one fell swoop? You know what...I'm sure S&W techs & smiths have seen one of these "bad eggs" that simply got a quick buff and squirt instead of having opted to replace the unit altogether. Last I checked, reputation doesn't have a pricetag - or does it? Because in a day and age where die-hard S&W enthusiasts still cling to the hopes of finding a worthy contender for Glock or HK, mags dropping and FTE's are the last thing S&W should be worrying about. With all due respect to all my M&P neighbors, I too am a proud M&P owner, and do not even own a Glock, but nothing would please me more than to be able to see or even believe my M&P could do what follows next, and yes, this G18 may have a few mods, but I'm sure the mag isn't popping out and as for Failure To Eject? What's that?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI...ted&search/



Mind you these are like 30some-odd round mags at least twice as heavy. Could any one of you, even those who's weapons HAVEN'T failed, fathom their M&P ever doing this? I want to?



Now we may daydream about our M&Ps withstanding full auto abuse such as this, but if S&W are to become the top contender in the best semi-auto/compact arena, or even ONE of the best, making dreams real should not only be pursued, it should be their mission statement.



It all boils down to one very simple but crucial fact - regardless of your profession: Don't fail your product/service and your product/service won't fail you, no matter what the competition throws your way. Truth be told - S&W is reknowned for their service, but if the guns fail, it's kind'a like being the richest guy in the graveyard; so to speak. So, time to go to work, S&W - We still believe in you. Make us all, including the Military AND Police, proud.



I'm having a book signing @ Costco next weekend for those of you who'd like to cuss me out for stealing all the bandwith and hard drive space on MP-Pistol. Sorry guys.



Long live our Independence - Happy 4th every1!



8)
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Old July 5th, 2007, 09:18 PM   #24
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S&W has a serious problem on their hands here which won't involve any quick or inexpensive fixes - It seems likely that a true re-design in the area of mag well, mag catch, mag catch spring is probably needed and then what do they do about all the guns in service already... I guess just replace those that come back with mag catch problems. But who would want to buy those already in the pipeline that aren't made with the redesign? I don't know... in any event hopefully S&W will get serious enough about this mag drop issue to truly bury it for good... they will HAVE TO if they really want to play-for-keeps with the BIG boys (Glock, SIG, HK, etc.) in "M" and "P" sales, they're going to have to TOTALLY ELIMINATE this mag drop problem, stone COLD. And I surely wish them well in that effort... I would like nothing better, as I believe the design of the gun is, otherwise, a home run!
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Old July 5th, 2007, 09:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHart
S&W has a serious problem on their hands here which won't involve any quick or inexpensive fixes - It seems likely that a true re-design in the area of mag well, mag catch, mag catch spring is probably needed and then what do they do about all the guns in service already... I guess just replace those that come back with mag catch problems. But who would want to buy those already in the pipeline that aren't made with the redesign? I don't know... in any event hopefully S&W will get serious enough about this mag drop issue to truly bury it for good... they will HAVE TO if they really want to play-for-keeps with the BIG boys (Glock, SIG, HK, etc.) in "M" and "P" sales, they're going to have to TOTALLY ELIMINATE this mag drop problem, stone COLD. And I surely wish them well in that effort... I would like nothing better, as I believe the design of the gun is, otherwise, a home run!
I'm having deja vu...or maybe there's an echo in here.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:16 PM   #26
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Yes, chooch... a definite +1 to 1Shot's post!



Sorry if my comments are such a nuisance to you, chooch.... but this is clearly a significant design issue for the M&P and the topic is important to M&P users...



P.S. I nominate choochboost to be our classroom monitor! He at least deserves honorary moderator status... sheesh, so much devoted attention here, but no title nor authority? :wink:
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Old July 6th, 2007, 04:28 AM   #27
 
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Has anyone ever received a total refund for a pistol from S&W?
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Old July 6th, 2007, 06:16 PM   #28
 
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Now, that's the question... There's pressure building behind the flood gates. With a new car, you have three chances to make it right.

No "lemon law" for guns? I hope they come up with a solid fix!
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Old July 6th, 2007, 09:32 PM   #29
 
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Actually Kurlan, I think the question most of us are dreading is, how long before our faith in S&W is shriveled to forcing us into considering other options for the next “revolutionary” plastic gun. I mean it’s not like I’m afraid to bust another knuckle cuz my ratchet snapped on me, but I can always tape it up and head to Sears for a free replacement; not to mention that I’m sure there are more ppl with faulty mag safeties and FTEs than those who’ve had a ratchet snap on them. Seriously tho, say you do get your money back, what are the chances you'll be getting another S&W? Less than slim I bet.



In no small part do I consider Tag’s scare when he lost his mag, aside from possibly ending in the wrong hands, consider the chances of it dropping out when you need it the most; where the difference between making it home or not lies on that 2nd bullet [that is if he’s got the No Safety variant] or maybe the gun won’t fire at all, cuz he's got the Safety model. Murphy’s got a way to make the improbable happen; I’d rather risk a knuckle scrape than getting shot period, and although this may sound like a nag, there may already be someone out there who’s probably suffered more than a scare from a faulty weapon. I honestly hope I never have to shoot anyone, but if something goes thump in the night, I’ll be sweeping the house with a weapon that doesn’t have me chasing the mag down the stairs in the dark or yanking the slide while a perp is lurking in my house. It’s scarier when you’ve got a family to protect.



You get a gun and ppl call you paranoid. I say, “I have a gun, what’s there to be paranoid about?” Oh I don't mean to nit pick, but where’s your mag dude?



Paranoia’s back - Dang!
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Old July 6th, 2007, 11:04 PM   #30
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1shot.... so true. When it comes to defense weapons, NOTHING matters more than stone reliability. And when one's confidence is sketchy in the stone reliability of one's defense weapon... forget it... it won't be happening.



Yes, I much prefer the feel of my M&P 40C in my hand and the M&P trigger feel over my Glock 23, but I have to say, the 23 shoots very well, is time proven, holds 14 hot rounds in a tidy compact frame, and mag drop issues are no where even remotely in my mind... I can shoot it with my thumb on the mag catch button if I want to and the mag won't drop. My G23 is my primary carry guns these days for those reasons.



I want and need that level of confidence in my 40C (when I get it back) before I will carry it again. I'm hoping for the best when it comes back from S&W. Some of you may remember that I was a MAJOR cheerleader for the M&P line during the early months of my M&P ownership - before my mag drop issues started to happen. But my enthusiastic cheers for the gun were suddenly squashed when the mag drop problem began with my gun. I would really like to be an M&P cheerleader again someday, but it will definitely take an extended period of reliable shooting (perhaps 1000 rounds) and it will have to be quite clear that S&W has not only solved the mag drop problem with MY particular gun, but that they have eliminated the problem on ALL of their production. This problem has to be deep-sixed for the M&P line to have any possibility of someday reigning alongside Glock, SIG, HK, et al in "M" and "P" sales. I want S&W to do it... but I have to wonder what's taking so long for them to increase mag catch spring stiffness, tighten up frame dimensions, deeped mag catch engagement depth, etc. If I get a refund for my 40C, you're right, I won't be buying another M&P until it's quite clear indeed that S&W has solved the mag drop problems across their M&P lineup for GOOD.
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