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mag release issues

This is a discussion on mag release issues within the MP Pistol Tech Help forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I have around 7,000 rounds through my latest M&P 40 (MPJ series) and have not yet had it drop a magazine. While getting ready to ...


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Old July 7th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #31
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I have around 7,000 rounds through my latest M&P 40 (MPJ series) and have not yet had it drop a magazine. While getting ready to give it a 1000 round cleaning I was thinking about the magazine drop problem I have read about. On these magazines that are giving the problem has anyone measured the overall thickness of the mag at the location of the mag catch slot? Mine all measure .860" to .865" They came with a early MPA and my later MPJ serial numbers.



The edges of the slots the catch go into are very sharp and squarely cut. Where I am going with this is that the problem may not be with the pistol, but might be the magazines. Mec-Gar makes the mags for S&W. Maybe there dies are needing sharpened, or possibly they have reduced the overall thickness of the mags to get away from the mag rattle when they are full. I know they have checked the mag shims I have made to stop the rattle. If they have cut 10 thousandths off the overall thickness they are going at it the wrong way. This would effectively reduce the distance of engagement with the mag catch when the bullet passes by and forces the mag to the opposite side of the mag well. Maybe the die they form them with is worn, maybe the steel isn't hardened properly? Who knows.



I know nobody would trust me with one of the problem mags to examine. But perhaps this will give somebody that has the problem something to look at for a solution.



Notice in the second picture that there is not much room for the mag catch to engage. If it stuck in very far the bullets would push it back, maybe my shims are holding the bullets back far enough to keep mine from loosing full engagement? I'm not going to remove them to find out. Once again Who knows? I can't get my hands on enough pistols to figure it out, but I'll bet S&W is working on it. What I do know is that I have 100% confidence in carrying mine. And 100% confidence that if there is a problem S&W will get it solved.



Now I'm out of the mood to clean my pistol, There is still some grease on the slide rails so I'm going to wait until I practice a couple more times.









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Old July 7th, 2007, 09:09 PM   #32
 
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S&W completely replaced my frame when I sent my MP40 back for this issue after about 200 rounds. Have not had the same problem since and I've probably put at least another 200, probably more, through it. (ok, ok, so I have several guns and I usually only run a box each through the ones I take to the range, and I don't get to go to the range all that often -- so I don't run up my round counts in any one gun into the thousands like some of you lucky bastards. ops: )



At least I think all they did was give me a new frame on my original slide -- I suppose they could have sent me a completely new pistol (it did have a new serial number). The "what we did" paperwork that came back with it did not say anything, just listed the problem.
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Old July 8th, 2007, 05:08 AM   #33
 
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I wonder if this is one of the reasons Glocks originally had mags that were not "drop free"?



I have a G19 and when the mag is from half to fully loaded it will not drop free, only when it gets below half loaded--kinda like that design now...
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Old July 8th, 2007, 10:55 AM   #34
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snscott... a customer svc rep at S&W told me that they can replace my frame if needed (in order to get a stiffer mag catch spring????) and that they can put the original serial number on the new frame. So I wonder why they would send you a frame with a new serial number? I asked why they couldn't just pull out the old mag catch spring and stick a new one in and he said he thought the mag catch spring was molded into the frame, but he wasn't sure... that sounds wacked to me... it would be much smarter to design the gun so one could change out mag catch springs rather than have to replace the entire frame just to replace the mag catch spring. Of course it may be that the frames are so cheap to make that it's no big deal... but it would still be nicer if an owner could pull out a weak mag catch spring and pop in a new, stiffer one.
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Old July 11th, 2007, 09:35 AM   #35
 
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Update on my M&P9 Mag Drop Problem...



My dealer received a delivery of new Mag catch release parts (hand delivered by S&W Rep) and installed it yesterday.



I could instantly feel that the distance to push the button to get the mag to release was much greater then with the old part. That was certainly an improvement.



I just got a chance to look at both old and new parts side by side on the bench. They are identical except the new part has a harder (probably treated) black metal tab that appears to be machined to shape instead of stamped softer tab like the old one.



The old metal tab has soft, slightly rounded edges where the new one has sharp, square edges.



Let's hope for the best.



The button still protrudes more then I like and I would like a stiffer spring before I consider myself happy with this issue.



TAG
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Old July 11th, 2007, 10:22 AM   #36
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Another UPDATE... I just got a call this morning from S&W. TO recap... this is the second trip back to S&W for mag drop problems and I've been given a total of 4 mag catches - none of this has fixed the mag drop problem.



The tech who was working on my gun said the frame specs were ok. He said they have yet another "new" mag catch with a much harder rockwell hardness on the metal engagement area AND the polymer part of the mag catch has been made slightly bigger (fuller) so that the catch will be snugger in it's position in the frame and won't have any wobble in the frame. He believes this latest mag catch design will correct the problem. I sure hope he's right. I'll have the gun back in a day or two to test it out. For my inconvenience (two trips back there and four mag catch "tries") he said they installed a set of night sights for me. That was a very gracious and generous move on their part.



There is NO DOUBT at all that S&W customer service has been EXEMPLARY... I can't speak highly enough for their service and commitment to the customer. The service is above reproach and a model for the industry - or any company for that matter.



As for whether the new mag catch will permanently solve the problem... it's going to have to be a wait and see after 1000 rounds or so with the new catch. I'm hopeful anyway and very pleased with how S&W has been handling these problems with my gun.
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Old July 11th, 2007, 10:38 AM   #37
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHart
Another UPDATE... I just got a call this morning from S&W. TO recap... this is the second trip back to S&W for mag drop problems and I've been given a total of 4 mag catches - none of this has fixed the mag drop problem.



The tech who was working on my gun said the frame specs were ok. He said they have yet another "new" mag catch with a much harder rockwell hardness on the metal engagement area AND the polymer part of the mag catch has been made slightly bigger (fuller) so that the catch will be snugger in it's position in the frame and won't have any wobble in the frame. He believes this latest mag catch design will correct the problem. I sure hope he's right. I'll have the gun back in a day or two to test it out. For my inconvenience (two trips back there and four mag catch "tries") he said they installed a set of night sights for me. That was a very gracious and generous move on their part.



There is NO DOUBT at all that S&W customer service has been EXEMPLARY... I can't speak highly enough for their service and commitment to the customer. The service is above reproach and a model for the industry - or any company for that matter.



As for whether the new mag catch will permanently solve the problem... it's going to have to be a wait and see after 1000 rounds or so with the new catch. I'm hopeful anyway and very pleased with how S&W has been handling these problems with my gun.


Free night sights? Man, I almost hope my 9c develops a chronic mag drop issue!
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Old July 11th, 2007, 10:50 AM   #38
 
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Question...

First, I don't have an M&P, YET. I intend to get a 40 and 40c when I can.



After looking at the pictures a few posts up, I have a question regarding the mags.



I assume that these are staggered, double-stack magazines, right?



It looks from the second picture like the nose of the round is RIGHT NEXT TO the magazine catch cut-out. Several people have stated that the mags pop out after EVERY-OTHER round, right?



My hypothesis is this...



Due to the double-stack mag, every other round is getting too close to the mag release bar and pushing the already-too-close bar out just enough to drop the mag.



Could this be part of the problem. A tighter spring MIGHT help, but isn't a solution. Looks like the mag and catch both need to be re-designed. The mag might need to have spacers put on the INSIDE to keep the rounds' noses away from the cut-out. That would probably drop the capacity by 1, but that would be better than no rounds when you need them.



Anyway, just my observation.



krstcs
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Old July 11th, 2007, 12:52 PM   #39
 
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Maybe, but during my mag drop problem I try ONE round in the mag, load weapon fired the round mag dropped slide didn't lock back naturally.
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Old July 13th, 2007, 10:39 AM   #40
 
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Another Update... Hopefully the last one



As I mentioned above, I now have the new Mag Catch with the hardened tab and it feels much better and I have not had any issues so far. It is no where near as sensitive as it was originally. The mags are a little harder going in and I am getting some scraping along the side of the mag but mag engagement is very positive and reassuring.



In an attempt to beef up the spring tension I came up with something that has made the spring slightly stiffer and is very easy to accomplish.



I took a piece of 3/32" brass tubing (inside dia about .060") and cut a length about 1" long. I slipped this down over the spring rod. It's loose fit with the catch removed and the spring rod standing straight. The cut length puts the top of the brass sleeve just under the mag catch which basically locks it in place so it can't slide up and down the spring rod. The brass sleeve interferes with nothing else in the gun.



With the catch installed the sleeve restricts the curvature of the spring to a slight degree while the catch is in it's normal position and the sleeve is held snugly on the curved spring rod. Pressing the button you can feel more resistance as the spring rod is being supported by the sleeve.



I'm real happy with this simple fix but will keep an eye on it for any signs of wear.



My MP9 mag catch now has a solid feel and needs a good firm push to release the mag.



I think I am getting my confidence back in my MP9.



Please let me know if you think this fix is crazy in some way. Sure, a fatter dia spring rod would be nice but S&W may not get around to that for a while (if ever).



TAG
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Old July 13th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #41
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TAG... nice to hear that things are looking better for your gun. And I'm especially interested in your modification to increase mag catch spring tension... GREAT idea! This is one area where I honestly think S&W really doesn't quite "get it". Twice they've told me that they think the spring tension is enough, but judging from my gun, I know that increasing the spring tension is an excellent measure to take to help insure that the mag catch doesn't drop the mag too easily... a little more tension there won't hurt at all and can only help secure the mags in place until definite, positive pressure is intentionally applied to the catch button. Putting a sleeve over the spring rod (wire some would call it) seems like a very quick and easy way to increase tension... I guess I need to peruse HomeDepot looking for suitable materials to sleeve with... have you considered a plastic tube? Where did you obtain the brass tubing you described?



I'm going to try your "sleeve over the rod" idea AND with the spare mag catch S&W is sending along with my gun (I asked them to send a second catch so I could experiment with reducing the thumb pad), reduce the thumb pad protrusion somewhat... I'm hopeful that with the latest catch and these modifications, the mag catch will require a very solid, firm pressure before dropping the mag - thus making the gun a lot less susceptible to (hopefully eliminate) undesired mag drops.
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Old July 13th, 2007, 11:41 AM   #42
 
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The brass rod was found at either Ace Hardware or a True Value Hardware store. Can't remember which. I bought it last year for another project I was working on. The packaging says "K&S Engineering, Chicago, IL" and the stock number is 8126 for a package of 2 12" pieces. Should be in the aisle where they stock metal rod, flats, and angles.



The brass tubing was something I had in the shop that fit nicely for a test. I going to look for something that fits even better over the spring wire which should increase tension even more. I might buy some 3/32" delrin, slice it up into 3/32" squares and drill it to fit the rod snugly. Then I can sell them to all you guys.



I'm also going to obtain another NEW catch to grind down on as I too do not like to amount the button protrudes.



TAG



Update: Delrin might be a little soft, I'll need to experiment with various materials suitable for this app. (Pat. Pending )
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Old July 13th, 2007, 11:54 AM   #43
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TAG! You are THE man! I will order, sight-unseen, one of your custom delrin mag spring stiffeners! I see this as a perfect opportunity for a creative industrialist.
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Old July 13th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #44
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My M&P has returned from S&W...

I got my 40 Compact back from S&W today. THis was the second trip to S&W and I've been through 4 mag catches so far trying to solve the mag drop problem I had. I was told all was fine with my pistol and all it needed was their *newest* revision of the mag catch. They were gracious and very generous to install a free set of night sights and an extra mag catch this time around.



I reduced the thumb pad area on one of the new catches, re-installed it, and headed into my in-home range for some immediate testing. I went through 5 mags (55 rounds) of warmish 180 gr. Gold Dots and 135 gr. PowRBall ammo. Everything went fine... no mag drops. The combination of new mag catch and my reduction in the thumb pad area of the catch seem to have made the difference... so far. With the reduced thumb pad, it takes more of a concerted effort to depress the mag catch (a good thing!). Now I'm going to give it a thousand rounds of testing to determine whether the metal engagement surface of the new mag catch will hold up over an extended period of use. I've learned from experience that it can take 400-500 rounds on a mag catch before mag drop issues begin to rear their ugly heads.... this time out, I'm cautiously hopeful. The night sights are great too!



Thank you S&W for the great customer service!
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Old July 13th, 2007, 03:27 PM   #45
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They do have awesome CS!! I hope it works well for you this time DHart.



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