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Anyone shoot with their middle finger?

This is a discussion on Anyone shoot with their middle finger? within the MP Range Reports forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; As to using the middle finger and gripping the gun. The grip is a very strong grip. 4 fingers are used: the thumb and index ...


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Old October 19th, 2009, 06:59 PM   #31
 
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Quote:
As to using the middle finger and gripping the gun. The grip is a very strong grip. 4 fingers are used: the thumb and index finger pinch the gun and the ring and little fingers add tenacity to the grip. You can squeeze the beegebers out of the gun and all you will do is add strength to the grip.


I cant imagine anyone believing that you have a more secure grip while indexing and using the middle finger to operate the trigger.If they do they should probably spend 10 seconds trying the two methods.



...If they still do?Their hands operate far different than mine(and the vast majority of other people's).



Much of the force absorbed while shooting is on the lower part of the grip.That's where I get calluses(usually the bottom of the pinky) anyway.I dont see how reducing the grip in this area would be beneficial.Most of the remaining force would be absorbed between the thumb and index finger...This shouldnt be affected much either way.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 03:43 PM   #32
 
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According to marksmanship guides the gun is grasped in them web of the hand with the thumb along side but not pressing on the gun, the index finger is aloof so it can be used to squeeze the trigger, and the middle ring and little fingers hold the gun. OK for target shooting or long distance pistol shooting.



In a CQ life threat situation, you will have a crush grip where the middle ring and little fingers will torque the down down and around to the left, and so that is where the shots will go. You can still use the sights for distance shooting, as the middle finger does what the index finger does, plus it is stronger so it can overcome the resistance of a double action easier than the index finger, and it pulls back straighter in the hand as well.



When the thumb is pressed against its opposing finger the index finger, you will have a strong and level shooting platform, and the more you pinch the stronger it will be. Next time you pick up your TV shooter, strangel it with your thumb and index finger and see what happens. Nada.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 05:21 PM   #33
 
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Wouldn't it make more sense to shoot with your weak hand if your index finger of your strong hand was disabled? I don't believe there is a middle finger stage in IDPA or USPSA/IPSC, maybe I skipped it.
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Old October 21st, 2009, 06:26 PM   #34
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:26 PM   #35
 
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I shoot wth my middle finger occasionally while driving.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:29 PM   #36
 
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You mean this ,/,,
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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:29 AM   #37
 
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I also uploaded a short video to U-tube that discusses the 1911's a slide stop pin problem.

If you plan to use a 1911 for self defense, you may wish to check it out.



The middle finger method of shooting that is shown is for close quarters self defense use, and

it can be learned and maintained with little or no training.



Just use safe gun handling practices and common sense.



It provides you with an automatic and correct FSP and an automatic and correct Sight Picture.

All you need do is point-n-pull.



To use it with a 1911, the 1911 must be modified.



I have used it with an M&P with good results.

Not trying to shoot someone between the eyes, just hit COM.







Here's the link to the video;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw



............



For those interested in aviation, just updated my page of WW II fighter pics and fly-by videos.



Here's the link: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aflyby.htm



And here are 2 nice group pics:











Hopefully, I will get some new videos and pics this weekend and others during this summer.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosestang' post='219327' date='Aug 2 2009, 04:46 PM
I was practicing dry fires and decided to try with my middle finger and my index finger along the frame. I can pull the trigger more smoothly with less barrel movement with my middle finger every time. I googled it and there maybe something to it, but was wondering if anyone here has any real world results?



Having my index finger along the length of the gun seems to keep it more steady when pulling the trigger, but i'm afraid the slide is going to get me eventually.


Here's some real world results..perhaps the most famous.....and why it's best done with a revolver.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 12:01 PM   #39
 
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In most all Close Quarters life threat situations, Sight Shooting is not used due to lack of time, bad lighting, or the loss of near vision caused by the automatic activation of our Fight or Flight response, etc..



And there is an 80% chance that if you are going to be shot and killed, it will happen at less than 21 feet, (that is at Close Quarters).



So knowing of, and using an alternative, practical, and effective shooting method that was and is known to work, could be critical to your survival.



However, there was specific cautionary language against using that method with the 1911 in military manuals published at the time of the adoption of the 1911 and in following years.



Here is the cautionary language in the 1912 military manual on the 1911: - Description Of The Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, Model Of 1911.



"The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side of the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slide stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."



Similar cautionary language is repeated in other military manuals of that time and later manuals as well. Those that I have found are dated: 1912, 1915, 1917, 1918, 1920, 1921, 1922, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1929, and 1941. And I am sure that there are many many more that I am unaware of, and which are out of print or relegated to the dust bins and dark recesses of history. Here is a link to a page that lists books that caution against the use of P&S, and to others that mention its use. http://www.pointshooting.com/1achrono.htm



There is the video and pics on the web of Ruby shooting and killing Oswald : make a google search. And there are pics of a person shooting and killing a perp in a drugstore robbery situation in Florida. The good guy is cleary using Isso point shooting.



Isso point shooting can be used with the 1911 2.



But when it comes to your life or death for all time to come, why not have the deck stacked in your favor by using the: simple and easy to learn and use, fast and accurate method of shooting that the US Army instructed its soldiers for years and years NOT to use because if used with the 1911, the 1911 could jam.



TV has been around for 60+ years now and there are millions of guns in the US, so there should be tons of films and/or videos of good old Sight Shooting being used effectively in CQB situations. And here is a link to a page of them: http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm



Just my odd sense of humor.



..................



As to pulling with the middle finger, it is stronger than the index finger, pulls back straighter in the hand, and gets nerve inputs on both sides. Check out the digest of the paper by Walter J. Dorfner (long time lead FI for the VSP - now retired and deceased), on his development and experimentation with shooting that way. http://www.pointshooting.com/1apands.htm
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Old May 20th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okjoe' post='257894' date='May 19 2010, 09:01 PM
As to pulling with the middle finger, it is stronger than the index finger, pulls back straighter in the hand, and gets nerve inputs on both sides. Check out the digest of the paper by Walter J. Dorfner (long time lead FI for the VSP - now retired and deceased), on his development and experimentation with shooting that way.


It's a little off-topic but since you brought it up, I'll try to clear up a few things regarding hand anatomy.



I am sure Mr. Dorfner was a nice man, however he apparently knew little to nothing as to its anatomy and the bio-mechanics of how the hand works.



This is from your citation of his presentation:



THE ANATOMY OF THE FOREARM AND HAND



The anatomy of the forearm and the hand was then studied to determine how our muscles and tendons work with that method of shooting. Several interesting relationships were found.



1. The muscles and tendons used to flex the index finger are mechanically separated from those that flex the middle, ring, and little fingers. That allows the index finger to be flexed independently to pull a trigger.



The above statement and those that follow are fundamentally incorrect in virtually every aspect.

The muscles that flex all the fingers are located in the forearm, there are two such muscles to flex the 4 fingers (excluding the thumb for now)....

a "superficial" flexor that has 4 tendons arise from the end of the muscle belly and pass thru the carpal tunnel of the wrist, they then individually each pass thru their own tunnel of bone and tissue pulleys to guide them to their respective fingers, with each finger have 5 - 6 separate pulleys to control how they flex each joint of each finger. The "deep" flexor muscle also arises in the forearm with similar architecture of arising 4 tendons that also pass thru the carpal tunnel and accompany their respective "superficial" tendon to each finger. So, the muscle that flexes the small finger is the same muscle that flexes the other 3 fingers, both at the deep and superficial levels. Barring some anatomical variation, each finger normally flexes independently of its neighbor, at both the superficial and deep level of the tendons.



2. The muscles and tendons that are used to extend the index finger are isolated in the lower forearm. That allows the index finger to be extended and locked independently for pointing.



The extensor biomechanics of the fingers is a little more biomechanically complicated than the flexor side of the hand, however the extensor muscles of the fingers on on the hair-bearing side of the back of your forearm. Again each finger can normally be extended independently of each other....that's how we point with our index finger, flip the "bird" with your middle finger, etc...



3. When any finger is flexed, one tendon is used to move the tip of the finger, and another is used to move the middle part of the finger.



First, the tip of the finger is curled back by one tendon.



Then the middle part of the finger is flexed by another tendon. It pulls the middle part of the finger straight back, and the middle joint of the finger is used as the pivot for that action.



The independent action of the flexor tendons does not require sequential flexing on each finger......the deep tendon to each finger indeed flexes only the last joint of the finger....tested by holding a finger flat against a table and you will observe the last joint is capable of independent flexion.

The superficial tendon to each finger does flex the middle joint, its independent action is tested by isolating the finger flexed toward the palm while the other fingers are held back, you will see that the middle middle joint flexes however you cannot now flex the last joint of that finger.



4. The tendon in the middle finger that pulls the middle part of the finger towards the palm, also passes from the base of the middle finger through the center of the palm. That keeps the pulling force centered and straight back.



When the fingers are flexed into the palm, their tips all point to the same place on the palm......the directional pulling force for each finger is controlled by bone and tissue pulleys holding them individually in place, there is no directional mechanical advantage one finger has over the other.



5. The middle finger also can be flexed or extended individually.



All the fingers can be flexed or extended individually !



As for your comments on the hand,

"As to pulling with the middle finger, it is stronger than the index finger, pulls back straighter in the hand, and gets nerve inputs on both sides. "



they too are incorrect.......all the fingers have the same muscle (motor) powering their respective tendons, so one is not stronger per se.

As mentioned above, the middle finger is obviously in the "middle", however all the finger tips point to the same place, again with no advantage to any particular finger, limited only by the design of the trigger guard if present.

Finally, the middle finger is provided the same "nerve input" as the index finger when it comes to powering (motor nerve) them and their sensation to the skin of the fingers, both supplied by the median nerve which also accompanies the tendons on their passage thru the carpal tunnel.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 07:33 AM   #41
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Old June 16th, 2010, 03:24 PM   #42
 
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The middle finger gets nerve inputs from both sides of the hand, the index finger does not.



To understand Walter's paper, I researched the anatomy manuals and struggled with all the Doctor talk one has to wade through.



Bottom line, both the index finger can be extended and flexed independently.



The middle finger pulls back straighter in the hand.



The index finger when extended helps to lock up the wrist.



The index and thumb when used as a pincer, provide for a strong and level shooting platform. The harder the grip the better the strenght of the shooting platform which can help with recoil control. When the thumb and index finger are not used to strangle the gun, when it is shoved forward under stress or when the fist is clenched under stress, the gun will be torqued down and around to the left, and your shots will go low and left.



The ring and little fingers have joints that allow them to roll forward when gripping and that adds tenacity to the grip if the grip is not 2 big and fat as with high cap mags. Single stack is better for a good grip.



Here's info on my latest videol on how-to point shoot. Was going to make a new thread, but this one should work OK.



New Video on U-Tube on how to Point Shoot with a pistol.



Name: EZ Point Shooting with a pistol.



Works with all types of guns.



Here's the Url:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511eT8Iwvd0



And here's a link to a new and very brief article about this method which employs our natural ability to point at objects, and which the US Army says can be used to engage targets rapidly and accurately.



http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyps.htm



If you are satisfied with your ability to Point Shoot, the information may not be for you, but it might help others in getting comfortable with Point Shooting.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by okjoe' post='261576' date='Jun 17 2010, 12:24 AM
1. The middle finger gets nerve inputs from both sides of the hand, the index finger does not.



2. To understand Walter's paper, I researched the anatomy manuals and struggled with all the Doctor talk one has to wade through.



3. Bottom line, both the index finger can be extended and flexed independently.



4. The middle finger pulls back straighter in the hand.



5. The index finger when extended helps to lock up the wrist



6. The ring and little fingers have joints


I will limit my comments to the anatomy related information in the posting:



1. The middle finger, like all the other fingers have SENSORY nerves along their midpoints of their sides all the way to the finger tips

The middle finger, gets its MOTOR nerve function from the median nerve only. The ring finger however has a split MOTOR & SENSORY innervation, from the median and ulnar nerve. The little finger is influenced only the ulnar nerve for sensation and function.



2. I didn't read Walter's paper; but the correct conclusion is that if you have paraphrased his thoughts, he didn't know what he was talking about as it relates to hand anatomy. Period.



3. Bottom line, all the fingers can be flexed and extended independently with just a little programming from the brain with training. There is nothing special about the index finger in this regard.



4.If you flex your fingers into your palm, you will observe that most commonly the ring finger actually is centered on the base of the base, not the long (middle) finger.



5. The wrist is stabilized ("locked up") by its own flexors and extensors that have nothing to do with the muscles that extend the index finger.



6. All the joints of the fingers are analogous......nothing special about these two.





The details of the hand anatomy are interesting and a little more complicated than the nature of this thread, but for those that are not privy to the discipline of anatomy / physiology........suffice it to accurately state that, the comments related to Walter's paper thus far are ridiculous and without merit.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #44
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp9werks' post='261579' date='Jun 16 2010, 11:48 PM
I will limit my comments to the anatomy related information in the posting:



1. The middle finger, like all the other fingers have SENSORY nerves along their midpoints of their sides all the way to the finger tips

The middle finger, gets its MOTOR nerve function from the median nerve only. The ring finger however has a split MOTOR & SENSORY innervation, from the median and ulnar nerve. The little finger is influenced only the ulnar nerve for sensation and function.



2. I didn't read Walter's paper; but the correct conclusion is that if you have paraphrased his thoughts, he didn't know what he was talking about as it relates to hand anatomy. Period.



3. Bottom line, all the fingers can be flexed and extended independently with just a little programming from the brain with training. There is nothing special about the index finger in this regard.



4.If you flex your fingers into your palm, you will observe that most commonly the ring finger actually is centered on the base of the base, not the long (middle) finger.



5. The wrist is stabilized ("locked up") by its own flexors and extensors that have nothing to do with the muscles that extend the index finger.



6. All the joints of the fingers are analogous......nothing special about these two.





The details of the hand anatomy are interesting and a little more complicated than the nature of this thread, but for those that are not privy to the discipline of anatomy / physiology........suffice it to accurately state that, the comments related to Walter's paper thus far are ridiculous and without merit.


If there is fault, it is mine. I read where the middle finger gets inputs from both sides, the index finger does not.



The bootom line is that both the index and middle finger can be extended and flexed individually.



The middle finger pulls back straighter in the hand, is the stronger, and when it is used on the trigger the bore sits lower in the hand than when the index finger is used on the trigger, and that can help in recoil control. Also while the index finger is extended, it helps lock up the wrist which also improves recoil control.



So to say that the comments made are ridiculous and without merit, is a bit over the top to my thinking, and takes the conversation away from the point of the matter.



It could be that one with more info than me, on how the hand works (which is probably most anyone), would know of other facts and info that would add support for using the middle finger on the trigger, and that could be helpful to other members if presented.



If I did not mention it earlier, here is my latest blurb. It asks and answers the question: Is P&S superior to using a laser?



http://www.pointshooting.com/1alaser.htm
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Old June 26th, 2010, 02:13 PM   #45
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1. The bottom line is that both the index and middle finger can be extended and flexed individually.



2. Also while the index finger is extended, it helps lock up the wrist which also improves recoil control.



3. So to say that the comments made are ridiculous and without merit, is a bit over the top to my thinking, and takes the conversation away from the point of the matter.



[/quote]



1. The bottom line is that all the fingers have the capacity for independent flexion and extension; nothing unique about the index and middle finger.



2. Anatomically, the index finger does not "help lock up the wrist".........a person with an amputated index finger can "lock up" their wrist with the same strength as one with an intact index finger. The wrist has independent flexion and extension stabilizing tendons on both sides of the wrist which function to "lock up" the wrist, in your terms.



3. I mentioned in the first post I would limit my comments to anatomy. You are certainly free to express and harbor opinions in this matter. However, when your opinions are factually inaccurate and have no anatomical / physiologic basis in fact the remainder of the forum viewers should not be misled because of your incorrectly held thoughts on the matter. To date, your anatomical comments in great part remain ridiculous and continue to be without merit. The conversation on this thread was re-directed to why there might be an advantage to shooting with the middle finger - this occurred when you cited "Walter's paper" to bolster your argument as to the applied anatomical basis for such an advantage. The problem with the citation or your interpretation of the paper, is that the information is just wrong. Sorry, those are just the facts. I provided proper anatomical diagrams to assist anyone interested in this topic of learning accurate information on hand anatomy.



For some it may feel better and they may perform better shooting with their middle finger. But to assign an anatomical basis for advantage to their preference or their experience is like saying there is an anatomical advantage for someone to hold their knife and fork in their right hand versus their left hand; some may prefer it one way or the other or be more facile at the dinner table one way or the other, but to claim that right handers have a dinner table advantage based on hand anatomy would be, well just ridiculous. The same is true in this instance regarding shooting with the middle finger.
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