primers for lake city brass 5.56

This is a discussion on primers for lake city brass 5.56 within the MP Reloading forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; reloading lake city brass 5.56 are any small rifle primers suitable. CCI makes a military small rifle primer they say fits the lake city brass ...


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Old September 14th, 2009, 04:34 PM   #1
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reloading lake city brass 5.56 are any small rifle primers suitable. CCI makes a military small rifle primer they say fits the lake city brass better than other primers.



comments what do you use for 5.56 LC brass
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Old September 14th, 2009, 05:44 PM   #2
 
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Originally Posted by nethinim' post='224498' date='Sep 15 2009, 01:34 AM
reloading lake city brass 5.56 are any small rifle primers suitable. CCI makes a military small rifle primer they say fits the lake city brass better than other primers.



comments what do you use for 5.56 LC brass


Use any small rifle primer. Do recall that you'll need to remove the crimp on the primer pocket before seating new primers of any brand.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 07:50 PM   #3
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The special primers from CCI are not needed, I've loaded somewhere close to 20,000 rounds of 5.56 rounds, almost all of those were with Winchester small rifle primers, I did load one box of 1,000 CCI small rifle primers when I couldn't get anything else, but those were standard small rifle not the military primer they sell, I've never used any of them. All of those were shot in an AR-15, I don't even own a 223 bolt action rifle.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 08:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by wr moore' post='224514' date='Sep 14 2009, 09:44 PM
Use any small rifle primer. Do recall that you'll need to remove the crimp on the primer pocket before seating new primers of any brand.


dont have any equipment yet ( months away) just reading, looking, and asking questions right now. lymans reloading handbook mentions a primer pocket cleaning, but i did not read anything about about removing the crimp??
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Old September 14th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #5
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nethinim' post='224540' date='Sep 15 2009, 05:01 AM
dont have any equipment yet ( months away) just reading, looking, and asking questions right now. lymans reloading handbook mentions a primer pocket cleaning, but i did not read anything about about removing the crimp??


Military ammunition generally uses primers that have crimped primer pockets to prevent the primers from being lost due to vibration in either shipping or automatic weapons. Frankly, given the advances in precision manufacturing made since the early 20th century, it probably isn't necessary any longer, but tradition (or inertia) is a wonderous thing to behold in the military.



At any rate, removing the primer pocket crimp can be done with either a swaging process (faster. easier and more uniform) or by cutting a chamfer on the primer pocket. Dillon and RCBS have swaging tools, a couple of others do too. If you really had to, you could cut the chamfer with a carpenters countersink bit turned with your fingers. You don't have to worry about this during resizing/depriming, just before you seat new primers.



Lake City brass is manufactured at Lake City Arsenal, part of the government owned ammunition plant complex, currently operated under contract by ATK (Federal is part of ATK). FWIW, virtually all Federal .223/5.56mm ball ammo uses mil-spec brass with crimped primers.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 08:41 AM   #6
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This photo compares a case with a crimped primer pocket on top, with one that isn't crimped on the bottom, notice the headstamps are identical on both.







The best tool is the Dillon Super Swage, its expensive but worth it if you process brass in large quantities.





A cheaper method is reaming, works well but is labor intensive.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/Default.as...20reamer____-__
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Old September 15th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #7
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thanks for the info i am learning getting little bits here and there. and will be prepaired down the road a bit to SAFELY reload



another question though

it seems like i cannot verify the loading values on powder and bullett combinations. lymans does not seem to jive with accurate arms, hogdgon, etc.



i cant look at lymans for example: for .223 63gr. jacketed smp, aa2230, 23.5, 2926, 37300, 26.1, 3250, 50400. and verify that on the accurate arms loading data for that caliber.



now i have been told that .223 and 5.56 are the same case. and i have read that the 5.56 is heavier walled therefore ia able to handle less powder capacity. and to be careful with reloading. army ammunition data sheets for small caliber ammunition fsc 1305. tech mannual TM-43-0001-27 1996 (i think) lists the powder as WC844 @ 28.5 gr. for the m193 ball 5.56. i dont see any max load in lymans that goes over 28gr. even a compressed load.



is the m193 5.56 a compressed load???
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Old September 15th, 2009, 08:02 PM   #8
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is the m193 5.56 a compressed load???


No, pick up a M193 cartridge and shake it, you can hear the powder shaking back and forth. While WC844 has been used, it isn't the only powder that has been used to make M193, the military specs I've seen don't specify what powder is used, and most of the ammo loaded isn't loaded with powders that are available to handloaders.



Don't fall for that BS about military brass being thicker than commercial brass, that is (for all practical purposes) an old wives tale. A few years ago I decided to test that theory, I came up with about a dozen M193 cases and about 5 each of various different brands of ammo, commercial ammo and some South African 5.56 brass I had, I weighed each case and recorded the results.



I can't find any formal written record of the experiment, however I do remember the results, they were pretty simple. All the cases weighed about the same except the South African brass, it was significantly heavier than any of the other cases. The small amount of South African cases I had were immediately pulled out and set aside, along with a note explaining why.



Of all the cases tested, only the South African cases deviated from the norm. A few months later another person on one of the reloading forums did the same thing with the same results, he had a digital scale and did something I didn't, the correct way to measure case capacity is to fill the cases with water, and then determine how much water they will hold, eg: weigh the empty case, fill to the top with water and weigh again, the weight of the water will tell you specifically how much capacity is in the case. Since I use a balance beam scale I can't weigh a case standing upright, so I can't test that way. His testing verified my conclusion as to the case capacities.



You probably will never see one of these, but just in case:



Headstamp PMP, stands for Pretoria Metal Pressings Ltd., Pretoria, Republic of South Africa
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Old September 15th, 2009, 09:27 PM   #9
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nethinim' post='224602' date='Sep 15 2009, 11:19 PM
.............

another question though

it seems like i cannot verify the loading values on powder and bullett combinations. lymans does not seem to jive with accurate arms, hogdgon, etc.

...................

tech mannual TM-43-0001-27 1996 (i think) lists the powder as WC844 @ 28.5 gr. for the m193 ball 5.56. i dont see any max load in lymans that goes over 28gr. even a compressed load.


Since all the different sources of load data use different firearms, there's going to be slight differences in the load data due to manufacturing tolerances. ie, the bore & groove diameters and chamber in the barrels will be different, as a result, the same components/powder charge will produce different results.



The powders used in large ammo plants isn't the same stuff reloaders use. Plants that use industrial quantities of gunpowder test that non-cannister grade powder to determine it's burning rate and load per the data calculated for that lot of powder. Different lots of powder will use different load data. Reloaders use what is referred to as "cannister powders". These are powders whose various lots are blended to create a product with a burning rate that produces the results published in their data tables.



The charge weight that appears in that tech manual probably came data records for a specific lot of military specification ammunition. As noted above, the charge weight refers to a specific lot of non-cannister powder and the pressure limits on 5.56 mm military ammo are in excess of those approved by SAAMI for the .223. Since Lyman and the various ammunition/ component manufacturers have agreed to abide by the SAAMI cartridge specifications, they're not going to publish data that exceeds them. Even if you could get your hands on the same powders. The various companies will cheerfully load 5.56mm military specification ammunition in excess of SAAMI specs, because they're loading to contract specifications that stipulate the pressure as acceptable and the government can't sue them for fulfilling the contract.



WARNING: DO NOT EXCEED PUBLISHED LOAD DATA. DO NOT LOAD POWDERS WITHOUT SPECIFIC LOAD DATA.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:22 PM   #10
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i just lost half a page of questions.



what do i use???



lymans 49th ed pg 137. .223 rem has no 55gr. FMJBT listed



accurate arms data for.223 uses a 24" barrel my rifle has a 16" with a 1/9 twist there is only about 7 choices for combinations on accurate with a 1/9 twist but it is also a 24" barrel all of those combinations use HPBT heavier bullets.



i have been going to the guides and picking a .223 at random and searching to find the bullet/powder combination available somewhere. i have not been successful finding both items of my random selections in stock.



so how do i do this do i go to a guide pick one and find the components????



also what size powder would i purchase how many reloade can i get from a pound of powder.



lets say a charge was 23.6 gr. can i divide the 23.6 into the number of grains in a pound and determine the approx number of reloads from a pound of powder.????
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:57 PM   #11
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so i found some hordnay .22 55gr FMJBT bullits (HO2267BAG) and accurate 2230 1lb. (AA22301).



lymans does not list that combination and neither does the accurate arms list it. i looked on hordnay site and found the bullit but no loading data. where are the specs to start a min load???????????????????



this is exactly what i want to start with but cant find the data on it.????????????????



this is the delima i have been facing, what do i do i dont want someone to say oh this is what you do i need to see it in writing????????????????



i cant purchase it until i find specs.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 07:43 PM   #12
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You can download Accurate Arms basic free loading manual here: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20G...3%20version.pdf



If the direct link doesn't work: http://www.accuratepowder.com/



Click on Reloading Data on the left side of the screen.



It is impossible for the loading manuals to cover every possible combination, so you go with the closest combination, in the AA guide they show using 2230 powder and a 55 gr Nosler B tip bullet, start loading at 22.5 grains, and you can work up to a top load of 25.0 grains, loaded to an OAL of 2.23 inches. ALWAYS start at the starting load listed! Never load to a shorter length than listed!



This is using a different bullet of the same weight, its a pretty good starting point, to get more specific you would have to buy the Hornady bullet reloading manual to find that specific bullet, but that really isn't necessary, look for a bullet of the same general type, jacketed in this case, and the same weight, 55 gr in this case, the other differences in bullet style mostly affect the bullet after it has left the muzzle. You will often see different loads from different sources, when I'm loading I usually look at all of them and pick something in the middle, if I have different sources I never use the highest of the bunch, it could be a misprint.



There are 7,000 grains in a pound, to find out how many loads you can get out of a pound divide 7,000 by the charge weight, as an example 7,000 gr divided by 22.5 gr =311 loads, keep in mind a powder measure won't work accurately when you start running down on powder, so to get all of it you would end up weighing the last bunch one at a time, or what most people do is dump the last of the old bottle into the new one.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 08:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by G56' post='224760' date='Sep 16 2009, 11:43 PM
You can download Accurate Arms basic free loading manual here: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20G...3%20version.pdf



If the direct link doesn't work: http://www.accuratepowder.com/



Click on Reloading Data on the left side of the screen.



It is impossible for the loading manuals to cover every possible combination, so you go with the closest combination, in the AA guide they show using 2230 powder and a 55 gr Nosler B tip bullet, start loading at 22.5 grains, and you can work up to a top load of 25.0 grains, loaded to an OAL of 2.23 inches. ALWAYS start at the starting load listed! Never load to a shorter length than listed!



This is using a different bullet of the same weight, its a pretty good starting point, to get more specific you would have to buy the Hornady bullet reloading manual to find that specific bullet, but that really isn't necessary, look for a bullet of the same general type, jacketed in this case, and the same weight, 55 gr in this case, the other differences in bullet style mostly affect the bullet after it has left the muzzle. You will often see different loads from different sources, when I'm loading I usually look at all of them and pick something in the middle, if I have different sources I never use the highest of the bunch, it could be a misprint.



There are 7,000 grains in a pound, to find out how many loads you can get out of a pound divide 7,000 by the charge weight, as an example 7,000 gr divided by 22.5 gr =311 loads, keep in mind a powder measure won't work accurately when you start running down on powder, so to get all of it you would end up weighing the last bunch one at a time, or what most people do is dump the last of the old bottle into the new one.


thanks G56, i was racking my brain getting frustrated. so basically if the exact bullit is not listed i use the powder and the bullit wt. start at minimun and see what happens.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 09:47 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by nethinim' post='224763' date='Sep 17 2009, 04:32 AM
thanks G56, i was racking my brain getting frustrated. so basically if the exact bullit is not listed i use the powder and the bullit wt. start at minimun and see what happens.


You've got the basic idea. FWIW, the data produced by many of the powder companies will show data for different brands and types of bullets. The data from bullet makers is only going to feature their own products. If we're talking about regular jacketed bullets, bullets of the same weight will ususally use very similar powder charges. In some special cases, like Barnes all copper bullets, the unique constuction of the bullet makes it necessary to go to the manufacturer to get your load data.



The question about the number of rounds per pound of powder is a good one. You need to keep an eye on cost per round, rather than cost per pound of powder. One thing you have to keep in mind is that some powder/bullet combinations shoot more accurately than others. Whether or not this will be an issue for you kinda depends upon your equipment, skill and requirements. Checking manuals that specify an accuracy load or make suggestions about specific powders can help out on load development.



One thing you do have to keep in mind is that changing components can result in rude shocks down range. I once changed bullet brands ( both 180 gr RN softpoints) and the point of impact moved 2 inches right at 100 yards. I tried a different powder in some 55 gr .223 loads cause I was low on my preferred powder and the POI moved 2 inches low and 1 inch left. So, once you've settled on a load, stock up on components. Mail order/internet purchase of powders may not be worthwhile, but you can easily get bullets that might not be locally available.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by wr moore' post='224546' date='Sep 14 2009, 11:57 PM
Lake City brass is manufactured at Lake City Arsenal, part of the government owned ammunition plant complex, currently operated under contract by ATK (Federal is part of ATK).




i live 5 miles from the plant and used to go shooting at their range, i'll walk over and pick up some primers for everyone. once i get past the zombies in the jeeps with machine guns it's all mine! need anything else?
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Old September 17th, 2009, 10:07 AM   #16
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As mentioned above, any change in components, a change of bullet, even of the same weight, a powder or primer change can change the point of impact, usually it isn't much, but sometimes its a lot! The biggest differences are usually when you change to a different bullet weight, that can make a tremendous difference in the point of impact.



The only way to find out is to shoot it off a good benchrest to get the best performance out of the combination of shooter, rifle, optics and ammo.
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