Make the case for a 9mm as a carry weapon? You judge. - Page 2 - MP-Pistol Forum

Make the case for a 9mm as a carry weapon? You judge.

This is a discussion on Make the case for a 9mm as a carry weapon? You judge. within the MP Reloading forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I recently got back into shooting handgun. I shot IPSC hard for 5 years, going to A class in the early 90's. I felt the ...


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Old December 3rd, 2014, 05:23 PM   #16
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I recently got back into shooting handgun. I shot IPSC hard for 5 years, going to A class in the early 90's. I felt the need to get a better gun for carry and home ( I had a 38 SP revolver). I looked into all new cal's and guns out there, researched everything. I picked the 9mm. I wanted a round that I could drive where I needed it to go under all conditions, one handed, strong and weak. How fast and accurate can the 40 and 45 be fired one handed? Weakhanded? I can't control the 40 or 45, as well as a 9mm. I For me I can control the 9mm under all conditions. Try the test with the same guns, shooting one handed.

Mark
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Old December 3rd, 2014, 07:24 PM   #17
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"My argument is that in the hands of an experienced shooter (I shoot 300-400 of rounds per month) with no 40-flinch, and with proper trigger and recoil control... the 40 is almost as accurate at speed as the 9mm. Even an experienced shooter will shoot slightly bigger "groups" with a 40, but not so wild as to lose effectiveness. "

Your above statement is the key. You are a very good experienced shooter I doubt that the average CCW carrier could do close to that well. The statement regarding 9mm vs 40S&W applies to that average shooter not any shooter that practices regularly.
I did the same kind of test with a Sig P229, only with a 357 Sig barrel and a 9mm conversion barrel. Both with self defense type ammo. The time to first shot was basically the same and the splits were 2 hundreds longer with the full power 357 Sig.
Certainly not any negative to carrying the Sig round. Accuracy, again for practical purposes, was the same.
Carry what you like and shoot well, what ever it is.
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Old December 4th, 2014, 05:01 AM   #18
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The caliber skirmishes or what ever you want to call it. It matters not what everybody else thinks it only matters to you in actual usage. I don't act like a missionary trying to gather converts to my particular vision of what is proper or the best in my opinion. Why because its only opinionated on my part with out first hand experience other than information gathered from fire arms journals. The information contained is dependent on the latest and greatest development that changes with the next issue or the issue after that.
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Old December 4th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #19
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If you look at timer and score results (without adjustment) for major vs minor in the various pistol comps, the difference due to recoil is minimal or nil for all but the "novice" shooters.

Realistically, I am way more worried about one or more of my first three shots failing to penetrate than I am worried about not having an 18th or 36th shot. Self defense shootings rarely require more than a few shots, and even less so if you can actually hit what you are shooting at under stress. You can find way more cases of 9mm failing to penetrate a rib cage than someone running out of ammo so I am strongly in Jeff's camp. Fewer but heavier .45 or .40 rounds seems like a statistically better choice for most experienced shooters.

That said, in the vast majority of self defense situations, no shot is even fired. Simply being armed gets you more than 95% of the protection before you get to skill, caliber, bullet choice etc. I would much rather see someone carry a .380 they are comfortable with than leave home a .40. The odds of the difference between .40 and 9mm impacting your survival are extremely slim.
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Old December 4th, 2014, 02:33 PM   #20
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Disclaimers & caveats – I’m not a caliber-whore or caliber-snob at all. IMO, if loaded well, any caliber from .38spl (possibly even 9x18..?) and up, including 9x19, .40, .357sig, .38super, .45acp, etc, are perfectly fine primary defensive handgun calibers. I believe the line I read somewhere (maybe here) that says “if you can hit your target, it doesn’t matter if you’re shooting a 9mm or a .45 automatic. If you can’t hit your target, it still doesn’t matter”. I believe that to be true and don’t personally have a dog in this fight other than confessing up front that I don’t shoot the .40S&W caliber. My primary defensive guns are 9mm and .45acp; so the .40 would clearly fall right in there inside my comfort zone with no issues at all. I have nothing against the .40; just never started with it, and don’t want to add more calibers to my stable at this point. Fact is, I think it’s a great caliber for defensive pistol use. I just shoot too many calibers as it is, and have no desire to complicate my life further.

If I’m armed with a properly loaded handgun in any of those above calibers, I’m perfectly content. So my comments aren’t anti-.40 at all; they’re just observations that I hope are objective.

I’m nerd enough that I put a ruler to the pics of the groups. On my screen, the .40 group measured 23mm, and the 9mm group measured 15mm. That’s a difference of 53% in group size.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
The advocates for the 9mm state that the same shooter can put more rounds on target more accurately with the lower recoiling 9mm, vs a 40 S&W.
First thought is that your test actually confirms this, doesn’t it…?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
…From the two plates, you can see there is less control with the 40 than with the 9.
If I, as a “9mm guy”, uttered those same words, would it not be seen as .40 bashing? Just saying…


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
..So the question... Would you take the group on the right (9mm), or the group on the left (40 S&W)
The left, frankly. I really (honestly) don’t care about the caliber differences enough that I wouldn’t rather have a 53% smaller group in the same time. If nothing else, it means that I can achieve the same-size group as with the .40, but faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
Even though my "groups" open up a tiny bit…
I could argue that 53% isn’t “a tiny bit”

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
…My argument is that in the hands of an experienced shooter (I shoot 300-400 of rounds per month) with no 40-flinch, and with proper trigger and recoil control... the 40 is almost as accurate at speed as the 9mm. Even an experienced shooter will shoot slightly bigger "groups" with a 40, but not so wild as to lose effectiveness.

I've honestly gone back and forth between a 40 and a 9 as the better choice. Yes, I think the 9mm CAN be as effective under many conditions, and I think a 40 can be too abusive for smaller shooters and less experienced shooters. And capacity-wise, 2 more rounds is two more (though I will frequently carry 19+1... in 40. LOL)

It all comes down to the most effective combination of capability (ammo), capacity, and control for the individual shooter. I'm sticking with the 40 for my preference.

JeffWard
I actually agree with all this, with the exception that I’m sticking with the 9mm. If my guns were in .40 rather than 9mm, I’d stick with .40 just as comfortably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncgunslinger View Post
It's like comparing redheads to blondes. They're both women and both wonderful! Although I prefer my raven haired Latina. To each his own and I respect anyone's opinion that is educated on the subject... guns or women.
Yep. Main thing is that Jeff actually got out there and DID his own test, rather than simply taking someone else's word for it. Anyone else's word; including mine.
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Old December 4th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #21
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I'm in the same camp as John in ar caliber wise; I like .45 and 9mm, and have no desire to complicate things with the .40 S&W round.

I do differ with his thoughts in his group size comparison, because Jeff's test involves first time; basically the same for both calibers, and results in a gun fight (or at least shooting a bad guy).

In matches; John's 53% group size difference may make a difference in score, with the time being equal.

In a gunfight; as Jeff noted, the multiple spine hits in either "group" will be decisive.

Personally, I'd rather have the larger group; because of the likelihood that more major organs would be damaged, leading to a quicker elimination of the threat.

Just offering another viewpoint.

When I practice pistol shooting; it's to be as prepared as I can be for a gun fight.

When I shoot in IDPA matches; it's not for score. It's to prepare for a worst case scenario, and to be able to get the most amount of shots on the target in the shortest amount of time.

I also am a firm believer that shooters should seek top-level training, and not fool themselves that with what they're doing shooting (insert game of choice here) they're "prepared."

They're obviously better prepared than most; I just want to be as best prepared as I can.

Last edited by Rick M; December 4th, 2014 at 04:25 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #22
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Best defense of oneself, is having a gun.
Even a 22 LR is better than a pocket full of rocks.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
Make the case for a 9mm as a carry weapon?
JeffWard
It's better than a 22.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #24
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$$$$....that's why I switched back. Lol
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