Just ordered a cronogragh - MP-Pistol Forum

Just ordered a cronogragh

This is a discussion on Just ordered a cronogragh within the MP Reloading forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I figured if I am working with a unknown powder charge I better see what it is doing. (CSB-1) Ranging from 4.0 up. [ I ...


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Old December 29th, 2014, 06:04 AM   #1
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Just ordered a cronogragh

I figured if I am working with a unknown powder charge I better see what it is doing. (CSB-1) Ranging from 4.0 up. [ I will stay away from the 5.0... ]
I just ordered a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph from Midway to run different loads and also for the AR-15 in because I am doing the same there.

American Reloading . com seems to have a good supply of powders and components. Just not the brand names we are use to using..

After getting the FPS off the loads what else would one want to look into by converting the numbers? Or in pistols is it just knowing you are not running to hot?
Maybe rifles are more to knowing everything in their loads.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 07:54 AM   #2
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In for the ride on this one.


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Old December 29th, 2014, 10:19 AM   #3
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Be careful with those one piece chronographs, its way too easy to do this:

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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #4
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Been using our club Chronograph in the past to check our Shotgun loads we made up for Sporting clays. The club went to the wayside and I do not know anyone with a crono, and I will say I will not loan mine out to anyone....
That is what it may come back as.
I would say that they were WAY to far away for that round.



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Be careful with those one piece chronographs, its way too easy to do this:

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Old December 30th, 2014, 05:27 AM   #5
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I'm also interested in the responses to this question. I just got a ProChrono for Christmas and am looking forward to seeing how my reloads are performing. I'm assuming that my objective would be to minimize the SD in order to get closer groupings. True? I'm not competing so velocity isn't as much a concern as tight groupings. Interested in how the more experienced go about this.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg1az View Post
After getting the FPS off the loads what else would one want to look into by converting the numbers? Or in pistols is it just knowing you are not running to hot?
I don't understand what you mean by 'converting the numbers', but I might be able to help with a few concepts here.

First, there shouldn't really a be a case of 'unknown loads' in the sense of loading a charge that's a complete guess. Hopefully that's never the case. While you can certainly create loads that aren't published, there should always be at least some basis or reasoning behind it.

The problems come into play when the 'reasoning behind it' is simply false--rational, intuitive and maybe even obvious--but purely wrong. The most common example I can think of is to reason that if a 5% increase in charge weight gives me 5% more muzzle velocity, another 5% in charge will give me another 5% in velocity. Similarly, and far worse, is to make the same kind of logic leap with regard to pressure. What you almost never know with published load data is 'how rapidly is pressure increasing for each increase in charge weight at or near the maximum published load'.

This last point may be one reason published maximums often seem ridiculously watered-down. While the published pressures may be well below SAAMI recommendations, what publishers have to account for is that, at their maximum, a 0.2 gr error in charge weight could put you well over the recommended max. A straight-line drawn between the published min and max values would imply you could safely go 0.5 gr over max--but it's not a straight line and you have no way of knowing how 'not straight' it is.

Another bad assumption is that any charge that results in the same bullet weight being pushed to the same muzzle velocity must be producing similar peak pressures. Not true in the least. If you could plot pressure over time, you'd likely see similar areas under those plots, but peak pressures could be dramatically--and dangerously--different.

As for uniformity, I think that's always a pretty good thing. But mainly because it tells me a little something about the quality of my handloading process, and something about the sensitivity of muzzle velocity to the variations I have little control over. In other words, using the equipment I have, I can only throw charge weights within a certain band--to narrow that band I have to use other equipment or techniques. So, if I want a smaller dispersion of muzzle velocities, I may have to do other things--charge weight is obviously just one source of variation. Bullets, brass, primers, crimp, bore conditions, environment (temperature, mostly) are all factors. I have not seen an obvious correlation between small SD and small groups--shooting straight-wall handgun cartridges. There have been some obvious exceptions, but I also haven't been careful in looking for the correlation (bench shooting, measured groups, etc). When I stumble upon single-digit deviation, I know it has a real satisfying feeling though. I don't load rifle, but my impression is that it's a whole different ballgame.

My strongest recommendation would be to do some experimenting to get to know your instrument (uh...your chronograph). Examples would be to chrono a box of well-known .22LR such as CCI Standard Velocity, or even a box of 'match' ammo with a published MV. Using data collected from a trustworthy and large sample set (say 20 to 50 rounds), work through the operation and features to get some statistics. Any wild or unexplained behavior can then be more safely blamed on low batteries, poor chrono placement, operator error, etc., than on erratic loads.

At the same time, build a small variety of handloads using published load data exactly--same powder, same primer, same bullets (not the same weight bullets--the same bullets). Or come as close as you can--don't expect to compare your 200gr cast loads to published 200gr FMJ loads). Make some effort to shoot at 'reasonable' temperatures (e.g., not at 10 degrees outside or at 96 either). Then compare to the published MV figures. Now, you have reason to trust (or suspect) your chrono and your ability to use it to get reliable data.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; December 30th, 2014 at 07:30 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 08:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G56 View Post
Be careful with those one piece chronographs, its way too easy to do this:

You gotta admit though, the shot was dead-nuts in windage--it was just a minor elevation problem.

Good penetration, too.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; December 30th, 2014 at 08:44 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 12:13 PM   #8
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You write up was very good to read.

Using the CSB-1 reference, they say to use "Universal" data for a load. But also start 5 -10% lower...
On this run I will be using CCI primers also and to see what I come up with on FPS.
I am gonna try my damnest to keep all info logged for later use.
My wife even checks each load on weight from the powder charger just to double check... She is having more fun doing this than I thought and I keep an eye on everything she is doing...
This is going to be her hobby as she wanted to reload, I am having her do most of the work there as I do the research to what we need..

I done my reloading for shotgun loads for 20 years,,, rechecking data with every keg I bought or changed in primers, wads and hulls... her turn...
It is a new hobby for her...
I do not want to spoil it by taking over, Just doing the work in the back ground and helping when I am needed as an assembly line.

I just like the fact she is willing to put the work it takes into something and then gets to enjoy it shooting it off..

Again, I do thank you for that write up...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Boy View Post
I don't understand what you mean by 'converting the numbers', but I might be able to help with a few concepts here.

First, there shouldn't really a be a case of 'unknown loads' in the sense of loading a charge that's a complete guess. Hopefully that's never the case. While you can certainly create loads that aren't published, there should always be at least some basis or reasoning behind it.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 01:40 PM   #9
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First let me state that isn't my chrony, its an image found on one of the reloading message boards online, one of several I have in my collection. My chrony is a two piece model, the brains sit safely on the bench out of the line of fire, so I only have the two sensors downrange, and the sensors are reasonably priced. I've had my chrony about 5 years now, I only use it occasionally, but even so, and I'm extremely careful, I've shot 3 sensors so far, 2 had to be replaced, 1 has a bullet hole but in a non critical area that doesn't compromise function. It is way easier to shoot those things than you might think, especially on AR's since their sights are so high above the barrel, I work a lot with AR's which puts the chrony at bigger risk.

I have a Pact Model 1XP
PACT Inc. - Model 1 XP Chronograph
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Old December 30th, 2014, 04:49 PM   #10
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On an AR, how far in front do you recommend to put the Crono...?
On the 9mm I was thinking 10 -12 feet in front. does that sound right or wrong per say?
As mentioned in the OP I have a [Competition Electronics ProChrono] coming. Later I will add the remote control if I feel I want one.

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Originally Posted by G56 View Post
It is way easier to shoot those things than you might think, especially on AR's since their sights are so high above the barrel, I work a lot with AR's which puts the chrony at bigger risk.

I have a Pact Model 1XP
PACT Inc. - Model 1 XP Chronograph
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Old December 30th, 2014, 07:32 PM   #11
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I put the screens out about 8 feet from the muzzle. If the screens are too close the muzzle blast messes with the readings, you would normally see wildly inconsistent readings if that is a problem.

On the Pact all the electronics are in the remote box, the sensors are only that. Many of the other brands the separate box is only a remote control, or a remote read out, all the brains are still in the line of fire.

Last edited by G56; December 30th, 2014 at 07:38 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 02:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg1az View Post
On an AR, how far in front do you recommend to put the Crono...?
On the 9mm I was thinking 10 -12 feet in front. does that sound right or wrong per say?
As mentioned in the OP I have a [Competition Electronics ProChrono] coming. Later I will add the remote control if I feel I want one.
In both cases, close as possible without getting muzzle blast errors. Usually about 10 feet. Pistol has given me more problems with readings than rifle, especially 45 ACP.

A couple of pointers:

Allow for scope offset if shooting rifle

Use wood dowels instead of rods. Dowel will break and not damage base if hit

Mark the rods with tape so you have a vertical reference point in your sight picture.

Remember the device does not have to be horizontal to work (base still should be parallel relative to bullet path though). Canting it toward the light may get you readings easier.

Assume now you or a future ex friend will shoot the base or rods.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 11:24 AM   #13
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I've never had any problem with the rods, its usually no problem to put the bullet right in the middle left and right. Elevation is where you run into problems, you will be trying to use it when the light is bad and you are getting errors, so you start shooting lower and lower trying to get better pickup on the bullets, and that offset between the bullet path and the scope sneaks up on you, next thing you know and the plastic is flying.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 05:15 PM   #14
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I read in several places how muzzle blast can dork up readings, but forgot about those comments when I was actually out at the range the first few times. Sure enough, crazy wild readings from the same loads--I mean just nutty numbers. Finally I remembered the comments, and moved the setup downrange a few feet. I was shooting 10mm big blasters probably at under 8 feet--and after moving out to more like 12-14 ft, things straightened right out.

Sometimes you just have to have it happen to you before you really learn it...
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Old January 1st, 2015, 06:27 PM   #15
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Just as a self reminder for the wife if she ever does use it on her own. ,
I will have it wrote right on top to mount 10- 14' in front and use vertical markings for the shooting window as I learn what works for this one...

Just taking most of the guess work out to save my equipment.
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