Magholder Mag issue...I think - MP-Pistol Forum

Magholder Mag issue...I think

This is a discussion on Magholder Mag issue...I think within the MP SHIELD Pistols forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; Received a magholder for my 9mm Shield but noticed the mag orientation to be opposite of what I am used to based on the shape ...


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Old March 13th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #1
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Magholder Mag issue...I think

Received a magholder for my 9mm Shield but noticed the mag orientation to be opposite of what I am used to based on the shape of the magholder.

I use my index finger when drawing the mag with the left hand and place it on the top round and then use the index finder as a guide.

The way the magholder sits. Left hand draw. It has the mag sit within the holder with the rounds facing down. To me it seems that it is a lot of wasted time and longer to do a mag change. Or is it me?

I can only imagine its because they think the mag/rounds would wnd up with crap in them?

Is there similar type mag holder, horizontal and friction lock that would be able to orientate the mag as I described above?

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Old March 13th, 2017, 07:58 PM   #2
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If I'm understanding your description that's the only way I've ever seen magholders to work.

The rounds are down (top round in the mag is down). the left hand grabs the mag with the forefinger on the front of the mag. The left forefinger finds the right hand and mag well and inserts the mag. It's very fast and unless someone is using magnetic holders it's the only type I've even seen in competition. A 2 second mag change is pretty easy to accomplish with them.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 04:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
If I'm understanding your description that's the only way I've ever seen magholders to work.

The rounds are down (top round in the mag is down). the left hand grabs the mag with the forefinger on the front of the mag. The left forefinger finds the right hand and mag well and inserts the mag. It's very fast and unless someone is using magnetic holders it's the only type I've even seen in competition. A 2 second mag change is pretty easy to accomplish with them.
Ok, thanks. I will just have to adjust how I grab the mag them. Im used to grabbing them verticle.

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Old March 14th, 2017, 04:44 AM   #4
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You'll still grab them vertically. But instead of moving your hand all around you'll just bring the hand to the magholder. It'll be a natural movement without a lot of wrist or finger action. The wrist and finger action will come as the mag is rotated up for insertion but they are simple movements.

Here it is demonstrated.

If you stay with it to the end you'll see just how fast it can be done. The film was NOT sped up though it'll look as though it has been. Max Michel is that fast.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:10 AM   #5
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Max Michel is NOT human...lol. Gawd that guy is fast... i can`t even dream that fast...lol
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #6
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Comment on the video demonstration.

He is reloading with a fully charged magazine and a round still chambered. This would generally be called a "tactical" reload, however if not performing it for the purpose of some competition activity a correct tactical reload would require the shooter to first make sure he indeed has a magazine with which to reload with BEFORE he releases the less-than-full magazine to the ground. The shooter would bring the fully charged magazine from its pouch (wherever it may be) in the support hand, control release the magazine from gun (now there are momentarily two magazines in hand), insert the fully charged magazine and importantly retain and position the less-than-full magazine into a pocket or secure location other than where fully charged magazines are usually stored on the person. By doing so, one is not dropping a magazine full of useful rounds to the ground that might be needed later in any tactical evolution as well as not unconsciously storing a less than full magazine in a location that your training has assured you always have full magazines at that location. The middle of a tactical evolution is no time to start counting how may rounds may be in the magazine you just unloaded and preserved.

Remember it is always harder and less reliable to quickly insert a fully charged magazine into the gun with the slide in battery, so much so, many tacticians recommend "down-loading" your magazine one-round less than its maximum capacity in order that there is some room for the magazine to compress its spring and maintain its retention easily during its insertion. Recall how difficult it is to load that last round in some magazines; when it is full, and now you attempt to insert it into the gun with the slide forward, the magazine spring has to be further depressed ~ 1/2 round before the magazine locks in place.

If the gun was shot empty to slide lock, then dumping the empty magazine to the ground simultaneously while reaching for a fully charged magazine from its usual location is generally called an "immediate" reload and of course is accompanied by some maneuver to restore the slide back into battery, chambering a round.

Last edited by mp9werks; March 14th, 2017 at 11:40 AM.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 11:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp9werks View Post
Comment on the video demonstration.

He is reloading with a fully charged magazine and a round still chambered. This would generally be called a "tactical" reload, however if not performing it for the purpose of some competition activity a correct tactical reload would require the shooter to first make sure he indeed has a magazine with which to reload with BEFORE he releases the less-than-full magazine to the ground. The shooter would bring the fully charged magazine from its pouch (wherever it may be) in the support hand, control release the magazine from gun (now there are momentarily two magazines in hand), insert the fully charged magazine and importantly retain and position the less-than-full magazine into a pocket or secure location other than where fully charged magazines are usually stored on the person. By doing so, one is not dropping a magazine full of useful rounds to the ground that might be needed later in any tactical evolution as well as not unconsciously storing a less than full magazine in a location that you training has assured you always have full magazines at that location. The middle of a tactical evolution is no time to start counting how may rounds may be in the magazine you just unloaded and preserved.

Remember it is always harder and less reliable to quickly insert a fully charged magazine into the gun with the slide in battery, so much so, many tacticians recommend "down-loading" your magazine one-round less than its maximum capacity in order that there is some room for the magazine to compress and maintain its retention easily during its insertion. Recall how difficult it is to load that last round in some magazines; when it is full, and now you attempt to insert it into the gun with the slide forward, the magazine spring has to be further depressed ~ 1/2 round before the magazine locks in place.

If the gun was shot empty to slide lock, then dumping the empty magazine to the ground simultaneously with reaching for a fully charged magazine from its usual location is generally called an "immediate" reload and of course is accompanied by some maneuver to restore the slide back into battery, chambering a round.
Any video`s of YOU out there doing what Max is doing...?
I dont know about anyone else in here, but i would enjoy seeing YOU do what YOU just explained and showing people what your talking about.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 06:12 PM   #8
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PaPow, I don't think Werks was disparaging max's reloads but was trying to point out a couple of things that needed pointing out.

How you might reload in a self defense situation might be a little different than in a gun game.

In USPSA there would be no problem in max's changes... In IDPA ( and I will state right now I do not do IDPA so correct me if I am wrong ) you can not drop a partially loaded mag to the ground with out incurring a penalty. So your reloads would be different with used mag retention before reloading a fresh one.
Also he points out the potential problem with full mags and one in the pipe reloads which I have experienced myself. Kinda sucks to do a tac reload and get off one more shot and then nothing... only to find a mag not seated.


Would suck even worse if it was in a life or death shooting.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #9
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It was an exercise only and I have no doubt that there were only a few rounds in each mag'. Max is that fast. I've seen him shoot. Yes PaPow, he shoots as something not from this earth. He's a machine. But that's what happens when one shoots from an early age and practices. There's a lesson here somewhere, but it isn't for me. It's for those parents who shoot and want their children to be the Max Michels of tomorrow.

I could have picked another video, but I told M1909 that it was fast. That, among other things was my point. I think that might have gotten lost somewhere along the line.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpierrat View Post
PaPow, I don't think Werks was disparaging max's reloads but was trying to point out a couple of things that needed pointing out.

How you might reload in a self defense situation might be a little different than in a gun game.

In USPSA there would be no problem in max's changes... In IDPA ( and I will state right now I do not do IDPA so correct me if I am wrong ) you can not drop a partially loaded mag to the ground with out incurring a penalty. So your reloads would be different with used mag retention before reloading a fresh one.
Also he points out the potential problem with full mags and one in the pipe reloads which I have experienced myself. Kinda sucks to do a tac reload and get off one more shot and then nothing... only to find a mag not seated.


Would suck even worse if it was in a life or death shooting.
Oh nooooo nooo no, i wasn`t mockin on "werks", he seems like a hell of a knowledgeable guy, so i was just wondering if he had any videos that could help show what he`s talking about. I have total respect for the guy and thought by chance that he`s done some videos. I deeply apologize if it came off any other way.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
It was an exercise only and I have no doubt that there were only a few rounds in each mag'. Max is that fast. I've seen him shoot. Yes PaPow, he shoots as something not from this earth. He's a machine. But that's what happens when one shoots from an early age and practices. There's a lesson here somewhere, but it isn't for me. It's for those parents who shoot and want their children to be the Max Michels of tomorrow.

I could have picked another video, but I told M1909 that it was fast. That, among other things was my point. I think that might have gotten lost somewhere along the line.
The video didnt lose me brother, i was just blown away at how fast he is...
Like i said before, man this MAX guy is NOT human... sick shooter...PERIOD..!
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Old March 15th, 2017, 02:08 PM   #12
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Let's just reset the table of conversation here.

The OP seemingly didn't understand one end of the magazine holder from the other and asked for advice.

Then one video of a fast reload performed for the purposes of competition was posted.

Then I fool-heartedly attempted to further broaden the discussion so the OP, and obviously others, would have an understanding that when bullets may be flying towards you practical- tactical alternatives of reloading are used in complete contrast to the methodology in the Max video. This is where some regulars really got left behind.

So, again for the OP and those desiring to learn, here are three different videos with Bill Rogers demonstrating what I was referencing. Finally, what Bill does not
mention in the video but demands at his school, is that each of these drills requires the shooter to simultaneously move to any available protective cover to perform the various reload styles, then whenever possible re-engage any threats in the field of fire while limiting your exposure behind cover - all in the same time constraints. All the methods shown can be performed two-hand, strong-hand only or support hand-only. The common theme throughout these reload drills and other evolutions is to train the subconscious mind correctly for when its called upon in a real situation.

IF Max was required to perform these drills, his times would be similar as they are being performed in human reaction times.

The Tactical Reload:
https://www.dropbox1.com/s/pgy7h8vna...eload.MOV?dl=0

The Immediate Reload:
https://www.dropbox1.com/s/vvh4bkuw8...eload.MOV?dl=0

More Reload information:
https://www.dropbox1.com/s/sjbd01w9i...eload.MOV?dl=0

You are welcome.

Caution: Pseudo-science and / or amateur videos, diagrams, photos may be embedded in this post.

Last edited by mp9werks; March 20th, 2017 at 05:32 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 06:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpierrat View Post
PaPow, I don't think Werks was disparaging max's reloads but was trying to point out a couple of things that needed pointing out.

How you might reload in a self defense situation might be a little different than in a gun game.

In USPSA there would be no problem in max's changes... In IDPA ( and I will state right now I do not do IDPA so correct me if I am wrong ) you can not drop a partially loaded mag to the ground with out incurring a penalty. So your reloads would be different with used mag retention before reloading a fresh one.
Also he points out the potential problem with full mags and one in the pipe reloads which I have experienced myself. Kinda sucks to do a tac reload and get off one more shot and then nothing... only to find a mag not seated.


Would suck even worse if it was in a life or death shooting.
Tac reloads are done the same in IDPA, but most just do a reload with retention when a partially loaded mag change is required.

That said, I believe that they're no longer required under the new rules.

Last edited by Rick M; March 15th, 2017 at 06:30 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp9werks View Post
Let's just reset the table of conversation here.

The OP seemingly didn't understand one end of the magazine holder from the other and asked for advice.

Then one video of a fast reload performed for the purposes of competition was posted.

Then I fool-heartedly attempted to further broaden the discussion so the OP, and obviously others, would have an understanding that when bullets may be flying towards you practical- tactical alternatives of reloading are used in complete contrast to the methodology in the Max video. This is where some regulars really got left behind.

So, again for the OP and those desiring to learn, here are three different videos with Bill Rogers demonstrating what I was referencing. Finally, what Bill does not
mention in the video but demands at his school, is that each of these drills requires the shooter to simultaneously move to any available protective cover to perform the various reload styles, then whenever possible re-engage any threats in the field of fire while limiting your exposure behind cover - all in the same time constraints. All the methods shown can be performed two-hand, strong-hand only or support hand-only. The common theme throughout these reload drills and other evolutions is to train the subconscious mind correctly for when its called upon in a real situation.

IF Max was required to perform these drills, his times would be similar as they are being performed in human reaction times.

The Tactical Reload:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgy7h8vnae...eload.MOV?dl=0

The Immediate Reload:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvh4bkuw8h...eload.MOV?dl=0

More Reload information:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sjbd01w9i9...eload.MOV?dl=0

You are welcome.

Caution: Pseudo-science and / or amateur videos, diagrams, photos may be embedded in this post.
Very informative...thank you...!
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