MP-Pistol Forum banner

ATF kicks Sig out of handgun tests, continues

5K views 30 replies 19 participants last post by  fred5876r 
#1 ·
ATF is testing hanguns to replace the Sigs they currently carry with a polymer framed pistol, the Sigs suffered excessive stoppages during the test, while the M&P and Glock didn't have any gun related stoppages. Sig appealed the decision and lost.



This is one paragraph from the decision:

In addition to the agents' rating sheets, a record was kept of any stoppages or malfunctions that occurred during the live fire testing.[3] These records show that ATF's agents recorded 58 stoppages with Sig Sauer's full-size and compact pistols, 13 of which were considered to be gun-induced and 45 shooter-induced.[4] Id., Tab 2, Competitive Range Determination, at 3.[5] In contrast, the agents recorded a total of 16 shooter‑induced stoppages for Smith & Wesson's guns and 7 shooter-induced stoppages for Glock's guns. There were no gun-induced stoppages recorded for the Smith & Wesson or Glock guns. Id., Tab 8, Contracting Officer's Smith & Wesson Evaluation Summary, and Tab 9, Contracting Officer's Glock Evaluation Summary.

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm
 
#2 ·
Not to pile on to Sig, but the scuttle butt lately throughout the shooting community is that Sig's QA has really gone down the crapper. Every thread I see where someone asked about Sig is responded to with advice to buy an old Sig and stay away from the newer Sigs. Shame because Sig has always had the best reputation for reliability.



On another note it's good to see the M&P going through a trial with the Glock neck and neck.
 
#3 ·
You know, the M&P did okay during an intensive test done by DEA a while back, too, which included shooting 10,000 rounds through the each of the guns in 2 days. The M&P models listed were approved for personal purchase and use both on & off-duty by agents.



http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c...&highlight=



I think S&W has quietly been testing the waters and making sure their current M&P's are ready for prime time.
 
#4 ·
Funny this should come up. I did a private advanced CCW class for a student a couple of months ago. In the 8 hour class we each shot 600 rounds. During the private classes I normally shoot as much as the students doing demos of drills and shooting against them in trimmed drills. I use a full size M&P for all the classes and this student was shooting a new Sig 229. The student had broken in his Sig with about 600 round prior to the class, it was properly cleaned and lubed prior to the class and it totally fell on it's face...



He was using all Sig brand mags and most of the failures seemed to be mag related. It almost never locked the slide back on the last round, fail to even attempt to feed a round into the chamber about 10 times. Would hand up rounds attempting to feed, and failed to extract several times. I was shocked. We took the mags apart to make sure they weren't dirty and checked to make sure they weren't bent in some way and it all looked good. Not sure what the story was but I would not have been happy to pay that much and have it be dysfunctional.



Oh, by the way... I didn't have a single issue with my high mileage and dirty M&P9 with the old shiny mags that have been in the dirt and not cleaned in months. Nice....
 
#5 ·
Go S&W!!



Let's hope the ATF supports an American company.



God Bless,

David



P.S. I competed with a sig for one season and it was nothing but problems for me. I’ve owned a 228, 226, and 220. They’ve all been sold.
 
#7 ·
Not to pile on to Sig, but the scuttle butt lately throughout the shooting community is that Sig's QA has really gone down the crapper. Every thread I see where someone asked about Sig is responded to with advice to buy an old Sig and stay away from the newer Sigs. Shame because Sig has always had the best reputation for reliability.



On another note it's good to see the M&P going through a trial with the Glock neck and neck.


It seems like Sig may have started to rest on its laurels, a bad thing to do in the small community of firearms being considered by LE in my opinion.



Here is a link to the GAO decision to deny Sig's appeal.



Matter of: Sig Sauer, Inc.



I could not help but notice where Sig "...contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III."



Now I have never been a LEO, but speaking as a CCW permit holder, reliability of my weapon is a very important criteria. I can only imagine it is more so for a LEO who faces potential danger almost on a daily basis.
 
#8 ·
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements.[11] We disagree.


You gotta be F'N Kidding me! No wonder SIG is in the crap hole! Let me guess they submitted their piece of turd, excuse for a gun SIG 250.
 
#9 ·
I could not help but notice where Sig "...contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III."


That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.



If that's true, Sig needs to retool their factory to produce something other than guns.



God Bless,

David
 
#11 ·
#13 ·
I own 4 SIGS in various calibers, some new, some old and I haven't had any problems with any of them. I will say it is very easy to inadvertantly ride the slide release with your thumb on the SIGS. This may be the cause for so many stoppages in the test. And it will keep the slide from locking back on an empty mag as well. I developed this problem a while back and thought all my SIGS had suddenly developed problems. Once I realized what I was doing the problem went away. It just required a slight adjustment to my grip.



On the other hand - I just got my S&W M&P 9c back from S&W today. It developed an extraction problem, most of the time leaving the fired case completely in the chamber. When it did extract properly, the cases just barely cleared the ejection port. S&W turned it around really fast. Apparently they replaced the extractor spring. Hopefully that corrected the problem. I'll find out tomorrow.



Everyones mileage varies I guess.
 
#16 ·
Yes, but my reloads are perfect so it must have been the gun.




God Bless,

David


What do you attribute the failures to? Lite primer strikes, no strike. What work has the gun had done to it? Main spring change? Not trying to be down on you just curious what caused the failure. I have 10 sigs and have not had any issues. Is there something I need to look for .....
 
#17 ·
I own 4 SIGS in various calibers, some new, some old and I haven't had any problems with any of them. I will say it is very easy to inadvertantly ride the slide release with your thumb on the SIGS. This may be the cause for so many stoppages in the test. And it will keep the slide from locking back on an empty mag as well. I developed this problem a while back and thought all my SIGS had suddenly developed problems. Once I realized what I was doing the problem went away. It just required a slight adjustment to my grip.




I would be inclined to believe this if it were the first time they've fired a SIG but were talking about ATF agents already issued and carrying SIG pistols.
 
#18 ·
I would be inclined to believe this if it were the first time they've fired a SIG but were talking about ATF agents already issued and carrying SIG pistols.
I would be curious know if they were evaluating the Sig P250, which I have heard mixed reviews on. I too own several sigs and they are all great guns (P220 Cary, P229 DAK, and P2340) But while looking at guns at a shop today I handled and dried fired several new sigs. I found the trigger pull to be very heavey and not as crisp as the older ones. Just my observation. I too hope that the ATF goes with an American Company and picks the M&P. We are issued the M&P 40 and IMHO that is the best service weapon that we have been issued in my 20 years in LEO work.



Stay safe and happy shooting.



Sgt. H
 
#19 ·
I would be curious know if they were evaluating the Sig P250, which I have heard mixed reviews on. I too own several sigs and they are all great guns (P220 Cary, P229 DAK, and P2340) But while looking at guns at a shop today I handled and dried fired several new sigs. I found the trigger pull to be very heavey and not as crisp as the older ones. Just my observation. I too hope that the ATF goes with an American Company and picks the M&P. We are issued the M&P 40 and IMHO that is the best service weapon that we have been issued in my 20 years in LEO work.



Stay safe and happy shooting.



Sgt. H


They need to do the test with the 2022.
 
#20 ·
What do you attribute the failures to? Lite primer strikes, no strike. What work has the gun had done to it? Main spring change? Not trying to be down on you just curious what caused the failure. I have 10 sigs and have not had any issues. Is there something I need to look for .....
It wasn't capable of being used hard. It chocked if it got a little dirty.



I use guns hard. I don't clean them every time I go to the range and mags get dropped and kicked around then put back into the mag-well.



My berettas and M&P's have no problem with this kind of use, only my sigs did.



God Bless,

David
 
#22 ·
I own three M&Ps, all full-size. Curious about opinions on the FN FNP-9. They are running a special for certified instructors right now, one per instructor (really good price). However, they are all Dark Earth 9mm, so the businessman inside me thinks they didn't score a big international military sale and now they are trying to get their money out of the builds.



For a little more than half price, I have one on the way...hoping it's worth more than half the price!!!
 
#24 ·
I still maintain the M&P is the European gun maker's worst nightmare. Now that an American company builds a gun that is as good or better than any of theirs for a good price why bother buying anything else? I have heard from various officers that Sig has really let their quality slip lately and HK is just too expensive for what you get. Most say now the choice for a department comes between the M&P and the Glock.
 
#26 ·
I purchased my P229 a few months ago and have since shot hundreds of rounds through it w/o failure. If the ATF wanted to test a polymer Sig, they definitely chose the wrong one. I'm NOT a fan of the P250. The SP2022 would have been a MUCH better choice.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top