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Pistol Caliber Carbine?

4K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  jdmidwest 
#1 ·
Am I the only one that would be interested in a pistol caliber carbine from S&W? I have always wanted an H&K MP5, but those things are WAY out of budget. I know Beretta makes one that is compatible with 92 mags, but I want one from Smith as I'd like to have one system that operated on the same magazines. I think it would be a cool addition to their M&P lineup and I'd definitely buy one asap!

You could argue the practicality of it, but if that was all that mattered, we wouldn't have so many different manufacturers making so many firearms. Anyone else interested?
 
#2 ·
I'd seriously consider one in .40 S&W or .357 SIG if it used M&P mags and it was not patterned after the AR-15.
 
#3 ·
I'd take one in 9mm. Make those +P+ rounds really scream, I bet. I can only imagine the fun! Talk about a fun "run and gun". Something similar to the MP5 to be small and lightweight. Beretta seems to be a little too proud of theirs since it cost more than my M&P Sport and won't reach out near as far.

Unfortunately, I can't really think of any "real world" uses for one, but it'd be a sh*t ton of fun.
 
#4 ·
I'm a huge fan of pistol-caliber carbines for utility use. Truck gun, 4-wheeler gun, whatever. If Smith made one that took M&P or 5900 magazines I'd be all over it as I have so many of both already.

As far as power-increase over pistols, it runs 30-60% increase over handguns, depending on loads. My old Camp-9 carbine (that uses those 5900 magazines) launches 9BPLE at an average of 1616 fps for more than 650 ft/lbs of power; more than most full-house .357 magnum handguns put out, and adequate for a whole lot of things imo. It also launches 100-grain Pow'rBall at 1826 fps, for 740 ft/lbs; right up in .41 magnum territory and not bad at all for a "puny 9mm". Now, how well a Pow'rBall will perform on human targets at that velocity is a whole other - and completely valid - discussion. But the raw power is obviously there to have the right bullet put into the equation if one wanted to experiment. Even WW-USA white-box junk leaves the camp-9 at over 1500 fps; right in .357 magnum territory.

I've got half a dozen handgun-caliber carbines from 9mm to .454 casull, and in my experience they're just phenomenal little utility guns.
 
#6 ·
I know it's not an S&W, nor is it all black and scary looking with accessory rails and fancy optics, but this is the one I have my eye on...
....goin' old school, baby, for the Citadel M-1 Carbine in 9mm, from Legacy Sports. 10 or 17 rd. MSRP $539.00

Features quote from the website:
"New for 2014 is our M-1 in 9mm Parabellum. Offered in wood or black synthetic, the M-1 9mm comes with two Beretta style 92FS 10 round magazines. Additional 17 round magazines are available as an accessory item. Action is blow-back and weight is approximately 5.8 pounds."


Legacy Sports - M-1 9mm Carbine
 

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#8 ·
Probably sacrilege to post this here but......
I really enjoy my HiPiont .40 cal carbine.
Fun and cheap to shoot pretty accurate and I even picked up a 15 rd mag for it recently.
With a little 4x cheap scope it will group a quarter size at 50 yds.
If S&W put out one Id be interested for sure.
 
#9 ·
The Hi-Point might be ugly, and it may look like a weapon out of a Planet of the Apes movie, and it may feel as cheap as the price point, BUT my understanding is that they do work and work reliably. Nutnfancy did a great review that included lots of run-n-gun tactical shooting. It's 43min long. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxw_Sm6kRRg
 
#10 ·
I've thought for some time that a pistol caliber in a rifle/carbine would be a great seller; especially if it used the same magazines as a pistol. It would be extremely useful/practical to share ammo and mags between a pistol and a carbine. There would be lots of uses; target/plinking, self-defense, competition.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I've thought for some time that a pistol caliber in a rifle/carbine would be a great seller; especially if it used the same magazines as a pistol.
I suspect that a lot of the reason for the on-again off-again success of handgun-caliber carbines is subjective, emotional processing rather than objective, mathematical processing. The most common argument against them that I encounter is "if you're going to carry a carbine, you may as well carry one that has more power", and that's certainly a valid consideration. But folks who use that argument lose all credibility when they pick an AR over an AK, or carry an AR in 5.56 rather than in 6.8SPC or such. I have to ask their own question back to them - "if you're carrying that much gun, why carry one with that much less power...?" Not knocking the 5.56 - it's my personal primary carbine caliber. Just pointing out the undeniable hypocrisy of most who claim that position. :dizzy:

Many people decry a .357 magnum carbine as inadequate and inhumane for deer, yet few will say the same about a .44 magnum handgun. Since the two are equal power-wise and the .357 carbine wins hands-down in the field-accuracy and shootability categories, I have to assume it's simple, pure ignorance on their part. Because if it's not a matter of ignorance, the only other possibility is that it's intentional hypocrisy.

Similarly, a .44 magnum levergun will equal a .454 casull handgun power-wise; yes, really. This isn't something I once read somewhere on the internet - it's something I've confirmed with my guns and my chronograph.

Same reasoning (imo, anyway) that people bash the soft-shooting little .30 carbine - they seem to equate "lack of shooter trauma" with "lack of power". Yet even the much-maligned M1 carbine is right in .44 magnum handgun territory power-wise. And anyone who contends that .44-magnum power isn't adequate for personal defense is someone whose knowledge, logic, or motives I simply can't trust.

With autopistol calibers, the gain from carbine barrels isn't as stark as with the magnum-handgun calibers, but the fact is a 9mm carbine loaded properly will easily exceed a .357 magnum handgun for power. And a .40S&W carbine will do even better, pushing 135-grain corbons at 1675 fps, 155-grainers to 1500, and DoubleTap 180's to 1400 fps. IE, 775 to 825 ft/lbs of energy; right at .41magnum power levels. Problem for a lot of people seems to be that those numbers are coming from such a soft-shooting gun, that people dismiss it off-hand.

In the spirit of full disclosure, the .40 S&W numbers are ones that I've not personally confirmed. But they're consistently reported enough, and in line enough with ones that I have personally confirmed, that I have no trouble believing them.

{edit - wish I had some numbers on .357 sig from a carbine, but I don't shoot that caliber and haven't read enough reviews & tests to have anything worth saying on the subject. But based on the little I have read on it - largely at ballistics by the inch - it 'should' be a real sizzler from a carbine barrel...}
 
#11 ·
I recently picked up a 9mm from Just Right Carbines. It's currently configured to use Glock mags (G17/19, etc.). The JRC folks have indicated that they'll have a new magwell to fit M&P mags by the end of July....which is really why I bought the thing. I've taken it to the range a few times, and I've mounted a Leatherwood/HiLux red dot on it. No malfunctions/FTF/FTEs. Very reconfigurable, so I can swap parts and switch to .40 or .45. And I get to use it on our pistol range. Absolutely a blast to shoot...And MUCH less expensive than the other 9mm. Uses a lot of AR platform parts.
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
From their .357sig page - every load they tested except one ran more than 800 ft/lbs. The one exception was the DPX bullet, which always has lower-than-normal energy ratings due to the quirks of solid-copper bullets. (Still a great load though.)

Didn't mention the .45acp earlier, but even that caliber shows half the loads or so surpassing 700 ft/lbs, and at least one instance 800 ft/lbs. Once again, well into .41 magnum territory. From a 45acp...

Did I mention I'm a big fan of pistol-caliber carbines? :)
 
#16 ·
My current build is a 10.5" 300BLK with a pistol lower and Sigtac Brace... Running 30-45 round mags of 220Gn hollow-points... Great truck gun! My "Pistol Caliber Carbine".

JW
 
#17 ·
Years ago when I was pretty much a Ruger addict, I owned a Ruger P944 .40S&W pistol and a Ruger PC4 carbine that accepted the same magazines. Ruger had designed the rifles, available in 9mm and the aforementioned forty, to sell to police departments using their semi-auto pistols. The little carbines were based on the M1 and came with either dovetail or ghost ring sights. Instead of having only their sidearms or a shotgun, the carbines gave officers reach and magazine cross platforming.

I also had a Marlin 1895C lever gun in .357 Magnum to go with my Ruger GP100 .357 revolver. But I always longed for an AR to fit the bill.

With the recent decision by the BATFE to allow shoulder fired use of braced AR pistols thereby somewhat eliminating the need to go the SBR route, I've ordered this nifty little CMMG:

Pistol, Mk9 PDW, 9mm

and an accompanying brace:

http://www.impactguns.com/sig-sb15-...1-12in-ar15-tube-psb-ar-fde-798681467495.aspx

(Most of the polymer furniture can be dyed permanently black by soaking FDE, tan, pink, etc. in a heavy solution of Rit liquid fabric dye)

For me, PCC are excellent HD guns, great truck guns and frankly they're not bad for house to house, basic urban encounters either. When I served in The Corps more than 25 years ago for our first sandbox sojourn, the Rangers were using early SBR M4 variants for house to house and airborne ops. Keeping that muzzle tight to the body was a serious advantage in narrow streets and tight houses.

A final plus for the pistol caliber carbine; versus using a full sized AR in 5.56 for home defense, JHP 9mm ammo will statistically have a lower chance of over-penetration on interior and exterior walls mitigating collateral casualties and damage.

Did I also mention that they are really fun!?
 
#19 ·
My Pistol...



Doesn't take M&P mags though...

JW
 
#23 ·
The M&P AR is a modular platform. Buy a new upper, buffer tube, and a mag block. Walla, its a pistol carbine.

Why wait for S&W to come out with one. If you own an M&P rifle, you are 2 pins and a buffer away from a whole new rifle. That is the beauty of the ugly ole AR platform.
 
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