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M&P .357sig...what happened?

4K views 22 replies 9 participants last post by  JeffWard 
#1 ·
S&W no longer carries a M&P auto in .357sig, wonder why? Glock still does, but it seems that this round is on it's way out. I've shot Glock's in this caliber and it is very powerful, snappy, accurate, very similar to a .357 mag. ...
 
#2 ·
357 Sig. is a higher pressure round (40,000 PSI vs 35,000 for the 357 Mag.), but has a smaller case volume so it cant push heavier bullets nearly as well. It averages about 150FPS slower that the 357 Mag. in "barrel lengths" of 4.25" to 5" from primer to muzzle with 125 gr. bullets. S&W likely dropped it from the catalog because of low demand, although it's still made, and available thru LE contracts. Civilians can get a factory M&P357 barrel, a drop-in replacement for their M&P40, through retailers like Midway USA for $87 or less. Only difference will be the roll mark on your slide. No need for new mags either, because the M&P40 & M&P357 use the same magazines.

BTW, the M&P357 barrel is not compatible with the M&P9.
 
#3 ·
Weiss speaks good words.

Looking at the data, a 357 Sig is only .02mm larger than a 9mm, so sectional density is not even a factor (for advantage)

Lets look at ballistics:

357 Sig Speer Gold Dot HP 124gr moves at 1350fps giving a muzzle energy of 506ft/lbs

9mm Speer Gold Dot HP 124gr moves at 1150fps giving a muzzle energy of 364ft/lbs


The same ballistics performance can be had with 9MM+p+:
9mm Underwood Gold Dot HP 115gr moves at 1400fps giving a muzzle energy of 501ft/lbs

Sources:
357 SIG Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101
9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

357 Sig is expensive to buy and doesnt perform like a .357 Mag except for a weak load. From my calculations a 357 Sig is "more or less" a 9mm+P+ round.

One reason I like a little larger caliber is because the sectional density is greater, which is a small but contributing factor.

357 Sig 124gr: 0.138
9mm 124gr: 0.140
.40 S&W 180gr: 0.160
.45 ACP 230gr: 0.162
Source:
http://elevenbravo.net/ballistics/calculator.htm


For further reading:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sec...ctional+density+in+handgun+ammunition&spell=1


If you sit and play with the numbers, you soon think that ALL handgun ammunition is "similar" in performance, and some claim just that.

I still go to .40 for my first pick caliber though a .45 is still one hell of a round too!
Two killed at Mohammed cartoon event in Garland, Texas - CNN.com
"the officer, who used a .45 caliber Glock"


EB
 
#4 ·
9mm Underwood Gold Dot HP 115gr moves at 1400fps giving a muzzle energy of 501ft/lbs.
Comparing everyday 357 Sig ammo to Underwood 9mm +p+ could be a little deceptive.

In all fairness (apples to apples so to speak), Underwood loads their standard pressure 357Sig 115 gr. hollow points to 1550 fps. for 614 ft./lbs. of ME. That's 150 fps. faster, with 22.5% more energy.

They also have both calibers in 124 gr. hollow point: Their 9mm +p+ (over SAAMI spec.) travels at 1300 fps. and 468 ft./lbs., while their standard pressure 357 Sig clocks in at 1475 fps. for a total of 604 ft./lbs. of energy. In case you're wondering... that's 175 fps faster, and 29% more energy.

And, since it's germane to this discussion..., Underwood loads their standard pressure 40S&W 155 gr. hollow point (roughly comparable to a 115 gr. 9mm load) to 1300 fps. for 582 ft./lbs., while their 165 gr.(roughly 124 gr. in 9mm) is listed at 1200 fps. and 528 ft./lbs. They also load the rather uncommon Nosler 40 cal. 135 gr. jacketed hollow point to 1442 fps., which knocks it out of the park with 623 ft./lbs. of energy from a 4.5" barrel, albeit with a SD closer to .120.

So, in all honesty, does 9mm +p+ really measure up to the 357 Sig? :no
 
#9 ·
All this discussion about +p and +p+ has me taking a time travel back to the 1960's and the muscle cars of that era. Pretty much the plain vanilla coupes were turned into 442's, SS, GTO's, Z-28's, and Shelby's. Bigger, more powerful engines were installed. But with more horsepower came upgrades to the radiator, brakes, suspension, rear end, and tires.
I guess the same thing applies when designing a pistol around a particular cartridge or upgrading an existing pistol to a particular cartridge.
 
#10 ·
The thing with service pistol calibers like the sig is that they don't have the velocity to do much with that increased "power", terminal ballistic wise. They just have more blast, more recoil, and are harder on the gun with little to no advantage in terminal ballistics.

Exterior ballistics are a bit better, flatter shooting but in my opinion not worth the added cost, and muzzle blast.
 
#11 ·
Some of us don't mind the recoil and muzzle blast.

In my revolver days my backup gun was a Ruger Speed Six in .357 magnum with a 2&3/4" barrel. Lots of fun with the 125 grain hollow points.

My carry gun was S&W M29 with a 4" barrel.

The last time I shot my M&P FS .357 SIG we put 150 rounds of 124 grain HPs through it. When we switched over to the 9MM, it was like shooting a pop gun. I knew it went off because of the bang, but the recoil was so light, compared to the .357 SIG, it just didn't feel right.

I like the cartridge, problem is so far, I haven't found a gun that shoots the cartridge to my expectations, accuracy or reliability wise. I expect to revisit the cartridge in the next few years (have a couple thousand rounds loaded up for it) but I need to find a gun that works for me. Until then, I'll be shooting 9MM or .40 S&W.
 
#14 ·
I'm old enough to remember the first time the computer models and gelatin testing claimed the 9MM was as good or better than the .45 acp. I also remember all the police departments switching over to high capacity 9MM. And I still remember a lot of them dropping the 9MM when too many cops either got shot/killed after putting good multiple hits on a bad guy, or just had to shoot some bad guy a ridiculous number of times.

Now we seem to be going into round two of the 9MM is just as good/better than everything else. I hope we don't also enter another round of cops getting hurt/killed because the bad guys just don't understand they're supposed to stop/die when they get hit with the modern hollow points.
 
#18 ·
I also remember all the police departments switching over to high capacity 9MM.
In the early 90's I was an A.O. and carried my 686 with department issued .38spl, I was lucky the weapon fitted in the issue holster because there .38's were NOT heavy barrel.

I remember going to the gun store and not seeing many autos and a lot of revolvers. Now days, you see mostly autos and not many revolvers. Oh well... its just a reflection is all.

EB
 
#15 ·
The old computer models were wrong. The post Miami shootout days used computer models. They used light and fast bullets that tended to under penetrate. They were under the assumption that energy dump and temporary cavity was the way to measure the effectiveness of a good round. That along with hollow point design being in it's infancy were what caused many of the failures.
I didn't not say that the 9mm was just as good or better than the .40 or .45. The diameter and increased weight give those rounds and edge over the 9mm. That's not true with the sig. The increased velocity does not give it an edge "terminal ballistic wise" over the 9mm.
 
#19 ·
Those 586's and 686's are sweeeet.

We went to them in 83 or 84. I'd bought a 586. The Chief shot it, liked it so well he bought himself a 686. He liked it so well he made it the new department issue gun and everyone got one. We bought our own ammo and I used either Remington or CCI/Speer 125 grain hollow points.

The reason he wanted us carrying the 125's was an article in Police Product News (remember that magazine?) that stated in the first couple of years the KY State Police carried/used that ammo there had be 17 or 18 shootings by officers. In every case there was "instant incapacitation" and no bullet/parts exited the torso of the people shot. At least that's what PPN reported.
 
#20 · (Edited)
the 357 SIG was designed to replicate the 125GR cartridge out of a 4 inch barrel and it does with many manufacturers cartridges (yes, some boutique loads do better and some others do worse)...

I have read about the demise of the 357 SIG cartridge for many years now and it is still around although it is in fewer pistols...

I happen to like 357 SIG and don't notice the issues some complain about but they do bark with authority (yes, I also know this means nothing other than it may be louder than your favorite cartridge ;) )...

my personal experience with this cartridge is with the SIG P226 and P229, SIGPro 2340, GLOCK 32 (G23 with G32 barrel and mags) and the M&P 357c

my M&P 357c is accurate, a soft shooter and carries a decent number of cartridges on board...is it better than other handgun cartridges available???...I don't know if it is better but I have never found it to be weak...YMMV



Bill
 
#21 ·
History is full of "new improved" handgun calibers that are supposed to be the the final solution in self-defense. But it does seem like they are compared to the .357 magnum with the 125gr bullet for incapacitation capability. I think we have about exhausted new handgun calibers for self-defense......but not ruling anything out. Just look at the S&W model 58 and the .41 magnum. All one needs in a self-defense cartridge and it is invisible for the most part today.
 
#23 ·
When somebody builds an 16-18-round 357Magnum revolver... I'll switch.

Jeff
 
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