9mm in-accuracy - Page 3 - MP-Pistol Forum

9mm in-accuracy

This is a discussion on 9mm in-accuracy within the MP Talk forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; Originally Posted by BrianK Don I bought a Pro Shop long slide ported CORE 6 (?) months ago. It's accuracy has been disappointing even from ...


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Old April 18th, 2016, 07:43 AM   #31
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Don I bought a Pro Shop long slide ported CORE 6 (?) months ago. It's accuracy has been disappointing even from a rest. I've done what I could to get as much as I can out of it* but I expected more from the Pro Shop. I thought I had ordered and paid extra to get a competition gun, but it appeares not. Today I took the bull by the horns and ordered an Apex SDI barrel and what I need to install it from Brownells. I hope that'll do it.

* With a Wilson Barrel and 160 grain bulleted loads I'm getting the best I've ever gotten from it; 3-4 inch groups @ 15 yards. I don't call that competition accuracy as I can shoot tighter than the gun from a rest. We shoot much further than that for score. The gun needs to shoot better than I can so that I know what I'm doing.
Let me know how the Apex barrel does in your gun. I am beginning to think it is something beyond the barrels in my gun. There have been 3 different barrels from S&W and a Storm Lake barrel and it is still awful.

Approx 60% will group inside 3-4 inches but the rest expand that group beyond 6 inches at 15 yards from solid (padded) rest. I am trying to decide whether I should try sending it back for the third time or just trash it. I really hate the thoughts of spending anymore on this piece.

I have had a shooter that carries an EXPERT competition rating and he get basically the same results that I do with this piece of.

Last edited by donhudd; April 18th, 2016 at 07:50 AM.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 01:25 PM   #32
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Don, the Apex barrel is fitted to your gun. It's not a drop in.

I bought the user fitted barrel (semi drop in) and did the job myself. It turned my 4" 15 yard groups into <2" groups at 25 yards. I shot a match with it this past Sunday and I now have my comp' gun. Happy as a clam with my M&P now.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 03:02 PM   #33
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Did you get the Gunsmith Fit or the Semi-Drop In? I feel confident in fitting the semi but have doubts on the Gunsmith Fit version.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #34
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I kind of hate to quote myself, but here goes:

"the weak link in any accuracy chain is the person pulling the trigger."

The shooter isn't only the weak link, it is the weakest link in any accuracy chain. If a pistol can group within 1"-2"-4" or 6" at 25 yards, if the best the shooter can do is a 12" group, it really doesn't make that much difference. My general observation is that maybe 1 person in 50 can shoot better than 12" group at 50 yards with a pistol.*

It takes a pretty good target pistol to shoot a 2" group at 25 yards, 4" at 25 yards is considered about standard, this is measured shooting from a Ransom Rest, a machine rest, not off hand or shooting from a supported resting position.

*Educated guess based on coaching a LOT of pistol shooters.

Last edited by G56; April 18th, 2016 at 03:56 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 05:26 PM   #35
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I kind of hate to quote myself, but here goes:

"the weak link in any accuracy chain is the person pulling the trigger."

The shooter isn't only the weak link, it is the weakest link in any accuracy chain. If a pistol can group within 1"-2"-4" or 6" at 25 yards, if the best the shooter can do is a 12" group, it really doesn't make that much difference. My general observation is that maybe 1 person in 50 can shoot better than 12" group at 50 yards with a pistol.*

It takes a pretty good target pistol to shoot a 2" group at 25 yards, 4" at 25 yards is considered about standard, this is measured shooting from a Ransom Rest, a machine rest, not off hand or shooting from a supported resting position.

*Educated guess based on coaching a LOT of pistol shooters.
You are correct. Now explain what your post contributes to the discussion.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 08:43 PM   #36
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You are correct. Now explain what your post contributes to the discussion.
99% of the complaints of poor accuracy are not the gun's fault. In the real world, the gun is capable of shooting far more accurately than 99% of the shooters, that's being generous, its probably more like 99.8 to 99.9%.
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Old April 18th, 2016, 09:58 PM   #37
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BrianK

Did you get the Gunsmith Fit or the Semi-Drop In? I feel confident in fitting the semi but have doubts on the Gunsmith Fit version.
I bought the SDI. I took my time and it still took far less time than I thought it would. Far fewer strokes of the file also. I wanted my barrel tighter, but that didn't happen. It's still tight because of the pad under the barrel that needs to be fit. I wanted the gunsmith fit, but my gunsmith didn't seem to want to do it and I wasn't going to press him to do it.

G56, S&W today reminds me so much of the US auto makers of the 60/70s. Anything they make sells, so they don't make to a higher standard, even when someone pays additional money to get that higher standard. I like the way the M&P fits me, so I spent additional money to get what I should have received out of the box. Mine was a PC gun that didn't perform. What made it performance center I wonder? Different mass produced parts on a different assembly line? Or was it the same assembly line just with different parts? Clearly there was no fitting done to my gun. And yes, I know how to shoot. The difference between my gun with lousy accuracy and good accuracy was the fitted barrel. It was like night and day, except it happened in 20-30 minutes and I had to do it after spending an additional $200+. After the new barrel was fit I was shooting tight groups with it. Everything else was exactly the same.

My opinion, and that's all that it is, is that the M&P "Performance Center" guns are just assembled by the same hands that make the other M&Ps, but maybe just on a different day with slightly different spec' parts. "OK ladies, today we assemble M&Ps with these Performance Center parts. Take yesterdays parts off of your benches.". Clearly there is no fitting done to be worthy of the name "Performance Center". They're just put together out of parts bins.

Like the auto manufacturers of many years ago, I hope it doesn't bite S&W in the butt as it did our auto industry. I still won't buy an American made car because of what they did back then. In my mind they still make crap. Maybe S&W thinks the way you do and makes guns for the lowest possible use. That's a huge mistake in a gun designed for competition as mine clearly was supposed to be. Maybe they thought the owner wouldn't notice. Shame on S&W for that if that's the business decision that they made.

If the M&P didn't fit me as good as it does I would have sold my M&P long ago and probably bought a P-09. I would have gotten accuracy out of the box and would have had to mill the slide for the sight and replace the trigger parts. No big deal. I worked on the M&P trigger also to make it a comp' gun.

BTW, my M&P wouldn't have been able to shoot a reasonable group at 25 yards and I never tried it. I couldn't get 6" gropus at 15 yards until I started to tailor loads for the gun and then the best I could get were groups in the 4"+ size at 15 yards. That same load with the new barrel yields <2" groups at 25 yards. The only difference is the barrel. I was the shooter all the time, shooting from a rest. Yes, I can make A zone head shots at distance, accuracy isn't my problem, speed is. So I wanted all the accuracy the gun was capable of to maximize my strength. I can't write for others only myself.
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Old April 20th, 2016, 12:37 AM   #38
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My best 25 yard group is a little under 2", with a 40. It averages about 3" for 5 shot groups though. This gun actually shot a lot worse at first: 6" groups at 25 yards. Everyone blamed me for being bad, but I knew something was up when I could shoot groups half the size with an 8 pound trigger HK USP compact. I sent it back to S&W, they replaced the barrel, which cut group sizes in half. This was 3 years ago. My recommendation if you think the gun is shooting bad is to shoot another type of comparable pistol (glock, HK, xd, whatever) with the same ammo, at the same range, weather conditions, etc and compare the results. If the other gun is no better it's probably you. If the other gun is noticeably better (25-30%?) you might consider having S&W look at it.


Last edited by LoneStarWings; April 20th, 2016 at 12:43 AM.
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Old April 20th, 2016, 07:02 AM   #39
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My best 25 yard group is a little under 2", with a 40. It averages about 3" for 5 shot groups though. This gun actually shot a lot worse at first: 6" groups at 25 yards. Everyone blamed me for being bad, but I knew something was up when I could shoot groups half the size with an 8 pound trigger HK USP compact. I sent it back to S&W, they replaced the barrel, which cut group sizes in half. This was 3 years ago. My recommendation if you think the gun is shooting bad is to shoot another type of comparable pistol (glock, HK, xd, whatever) with the same ammo, at the same range, weather conditions, etc and compare the results. If the other gun is no better it's probably you. If the other gun is noticeably better (25-30%?) you might consider having S&W look at it.

I agree wholeheartedly. I would be satisfied if I could get my 4.25 in FS to shoot as good as my 3.5 in Shield. I would really like it to be a lot better but would not complain if it were equal. My FS has been back to the factory twice. They replace the barrel each time. I tried a Storm Lake drop-in barrel with no real improvement. I am debating whether to spend another 200 of just give up on it.

Last edited by donhudd; April 20th, 2016 at 07:05 AM.
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Old April 20th, 2016, 07:11 AM   #40
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Don, S&W did that to mine also. The problem is that they just replace one barrel with another just like it and that doesn't solve the problem.
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Old May 6th, 2016, 02:55 PM   #41
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Don, S&W did that to mine also. The problem is that they just replace one barrel with another just like it and that doesn't solve the problem.
S&W has replaced the barrel in my 9mm FS (4.25 inch) twice. That makes 3 S&W barrels plus I tried a LS drop in barrel with very small improvement.

I have Appliachian (formerly know as Red Neck) Engineered the LS barrel to give tight lockup as shown in the Apex video. I do not expect to get Apex results since I cannot change the lock-up geometry like Apex did but I should get some improvement due to the tighter lockup.

After I get a chance to try it, I will make up my mind about buying the Apex to do it right. I am currently confined to the house following toe surgery so it may be a week or two before I can get to the range.

Last edited by donhudd; May 7th, 2016 at 04:36 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 05:41 PM   #42
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Apex Barrel

I finally gave in and ordered the Apex semi-drop-in barrel for my 9MM FS. The installation was as easy as the video shows. I achieved a hard fit. The first time to the range I was very dis-appointed with the grouping. After about 100 rounds the groups began to tighten but I was too worn out to continue. Second trip to range groups tightened overall and I found one Factory (American Eagle) 124 grain load that produced 1 1/2 inch groups. I also found two 115 grain reloads that grouped inside 2 inches. All groups were shot at 15 yards.

All of the ammunition had been tried previously in the other 3 barrels (factory) that this pistol has worn and the very best group had been 4+ inches.

Now is the time for me to begin working on my off hand shooting skills with the pistol. I know what the pistol will do now and it is better than I can shoot off hand. I will know that any errant shots are me and not the pistol.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 09:14 PM   #43
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Sounds like you're on the right track.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 07:06 AM   #44
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40 yard headshots with my 9L. Stock barrel. Apex internals. Cheap Freedom remanufactured ammo

7/10 landed in the head. One dropped to the lower A-zone (my fault). 2 missed. Very acceptable, especially from a gun manufactured in 2008 and has had some mileage since



Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSJVwlrQ7NU

Last edited by Shanesy; June 11th, 2016 at 07:20 AM.
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Old June 25th, 2016, 05:45 PM   #45
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Apex barrel

I AM STILL SMILING FROM EAR TO EAR
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