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Breakdown Shortcut

This is a discussion on Breakdown Shortcut within the MP Talk forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; I understand what you are saying, and I don't mean to make light of being safe for everyone's sake, but if the slide is open ...


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Old January 8th, 2017, 01:27 PM   #16
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I understand what you are saying, and I don't mean to make light of being safe for everyone's sake, but if the slide is open to deactivate the sear lever, at least I can look and see that the mag is withdrawn and the chamber is clear. Perhaps It's me, but I come from a long life so far of doing jobs that are inherently dangerous. So I have a real sense for doing things safely. So again, I'm not condemning any one who uses the lever, but I also am not inclined to call someone foolish who can safely use the shortcut method.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by G56 View Post
Not picking on you, but if you ask Glock they will swear up and down that their method is safe, and if you do it the exact way you are supposed to, it is safe, but then those 'shortcuts' seem to creep in, next thing you know somebody gets hurt or worse.

The attached photo is from a guy who was going to clean his Glock..
Shortcuts only creep in on people who are foolish. You can't design around stupid.

Last edited by MWalden; January 8th, 2017 at 06:36 PM.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 06:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by msjdgman View Post
I understand what you are saying, and I don't mean to make light of being safe for everyone's sake, but if the slide is open to deactivate the sear lever, at least I can look and see that the mag is withdrawn and the chamber is clear. Perhaps It's me, but I come from a long life so far of doing jobs that are inherently dangerous. So I have a real sense for doing things safely. So again, I'm not condemning any one who uses the lever, but I also am not inclined to call someone foolish who can safely use the shortcut method.
Well said. Pistols for many years had no such device and most today do not have this type device. Attention to detail keeps you safe.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #19
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Well said. Pistols for many years had no such device and most today do not have this type device. Attention to detail keeps you safe.
That's because the vast majority of pistols don't require you to pull the trigger to remove the slide. Some guy by the name of Gaston Glock designed a striker fired pistol and set it up so you had to pull the trigger to remove the slide, and that's when that kind of accident started. In the photo I posted you can see one of the common mistakes, the guy put his left hand on the slide, but was careless in two ways, there was one in the chamber and he let the meaty part of his hand droop across the muzzle. If the guy is lucky, he won't have any nerve damage to mess up the use of that hand. The Glock 'method' has injured hundreds of people and killed several people, there is no excuse for carelessness but you hate to tell someone that at a funeral.

That is why the M&P is designed with a sear deactivation lever.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 08:13 PM   #20
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That's because the vast majority of pistols don't require you to pull the trigger to remove the slide. Some guy by the name of Gaston Glock designed a striker fired pistol and set it up so you had to pull the trigger to remove the slide, and that's when that kind of accident started. In the photo I posted you can see one of the common mistakes, the guy put his left hand on the slide, but was careless in two ways, there was one in the chamber and he let the meaty part of his hand droop across the muzzle. If the guy is lucky, he won't have any nerve damage to mess up the use of that hand. The Glock 'method' has injured hundreds of people and killed several people, there is no excuse for carelessness but you hate to tell someone that at a funeral.

That is why the M&P is designed with a sear deactivation lever.
VERY well said...!
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Old January 9th, 2017, 10:52 AM   #21
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Just last month, Ocala, Fla., Police Officer Jared Forsyth was shot and killed by a fellow officer after a Glock training session. The fellow officer failed to do a chamber check before pulling the trigger as part of the handgun's normal disassembly procedure. When the gun fired, the bullet went through a gap in Forsyth's body armor. Despite the efforts of paramedics to keep him alive, the young officer died on the way to a hospital.
Why the police shouldn't use Glocks - LA Times


Last edited by G56; January 9th, 2017 at 11:02 AM.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #22
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I personally do not use the lever, but I would not begrudge those that utilize the device.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:59 PM   #23
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Those of you that wont use the sear deactivation lever:
I just dont understand why you would want to play russian roulette... is it because you think your so kool and dont need to use safety precaution`s anymore...???
Just use the deactivation lever and remove all doubt... or just continue to try to be kool until you hurt or kill someone. That blood, will be on YOUR hands, it will NEVER be on my hands.

John G56, thank you for posting that cop training video, i was looking for it earlier but i see you posted it already.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:37 PM   #24
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Those of you that wont use the sear deactivation lever:
I just dont understand why you would want to play russian roulette... is it because you think your so kool and dont need to use safety precaution`s anymore...???
Just use the deactivation lever and remove all doubt... or just continue to try to be kool until you hurt or kill someone. That blood, will be on YOUR hands, it will NEVER be on my hands.

John G56, thank you for posting that cop training video, i was looking for it earlier but i see you posted it already.
It has NOTHING to do with being cool! It has everything to do with being absolutely safe when handling a gun. The M&P is the first pistol I have ever owned that had such a device. I have never trained to use such a device. I trained to drop the magazine and look, and look again, into the chamber to make certain there is no round in there before I go any farther. Using a device to bypass checking the chamber for a round is, to me, more dangerous as it trains a person NOT to look in the chamber.

I am not sure if this is possible, but what if . . . .

What if you didn't check the chamber and used the safety lever before removing the slide. What if the round that might be in the chamber stayed in the barrel and you put the slide back on and then did something silly like . . . pull the trigger?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 03:37 AM   #25
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It has NOTHING to do with being cool! It has everything to do with being absolutely safe when handling a gun. The M&P is the first pistol I have ever owned that had such a device. I have never trained to use such a device. I trained to drop the magazine and look, and look again, into the chamber to make certain there is no round in there before I go any farther. Using a device to bypass checking the chamber for a round is, to me, more dangerous as it trains a person NOT to look in the chamber.



I am not sure if this is possible, but what if . . . .



What if you didn't check the chamber and used the safety lever before removing the slide. What if the round that might be in the chamber stayed in the barrel and you put the slide back on and then did something silly like . . . pull the trigger?


Gonna be a little difficult since the action has to be OPEN to gain access to the lever and activate it.

Unless again a "shortcut" is used and someone goes through the hassle of trying to flip the lever down by accessing it through the mag well from the bottom.





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Old January 10th, 2017, 11:43 AM   #26
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You know, this has all been very very good conversation. I truly appreciate that everyone has kept the dialogue civil on this subject. I've been thinking about something on this though. One of the very first things taught about safe gun handling is CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE GUN IS CLEARED. If that cardinal rule is followed everytime, the rest beyond this is simply semantics.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #27
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You know, this has all been very very good conversation. I truly appreciate that everyone has kept the dialogue civil on this subject. I've been thinking about something on this though. One of the very first things taught about safe gun handling is CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE GUN IS CLEARED. If that cardinal rule is followed everytime, the rest beyond this is simply semantics.


Agreed
AND BY FOLLOWING the procedure laid out by S&W it is virtually impossible NOT to clear/verify clear to access the sear disconnect.




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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:16 PM   #28
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Agreed
AND BY FOLLOWING the procedure laid out by S&W it is virtually impossible NOT to clear/verify clear to access the sear disconnect.
AND by relying on this procedure set forth by S&W lulls one into assuming ACTUAL clear / verify is a distinct action can be just as bad.

So the next gun John Q Public buys does not have the sear disconnect aka Glock, and he has a brain fart and does not do a clear/verify as he does not have a sear disconnect lever which always caused him to check/verify and he pulls the trigger because he has different firearm than last week.

I dry fire most days with my comp gun and it is never loaded in the safe. Yet each time I get it out, I confirm it is clear.

Even in that same dry fire session if I have to take the slide off, I check to make sure is clear before disassembly. It is a habit. Check the gun before certain actions no matter WHAT actions preceded it.

The sear disconnect is unnecessary if rules and procedures are always followed.

I would venture to guess more NDs are caused by people racking the slide with a mag in, then removing the mag, and pulling the trigger with round in the chamber. They did all correct steps, but out of order. Should we advocate the use of mag disconnects on all M&P's because it lessens the chance of a ND? Basically it is the same argument as the sear lever disconnect just one is optional from the factory.

If you want to use the sear lever disconnect for disassembly, fine. I would not disparage you for it, but let us not be so dramatic over its lack of use will cause an inordinate amount of ND's.

Last edited by lhawkins; January 10th, 2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:43 PM   #29
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Breakdown Shortcut

Only way to reach the sear disconnect is THROUGH THE OPEN ACTION. Hard to shoot ones self with the ACTION OPEN.

Then John Q Public did exactly what he WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO pull the trigger BEFORE verifying. Check and recheck. Period

I have several semi auto pistols WO the sear disconnect and with mag disconnect one being a 3rd gen S&W 4006 no need to pull trigger on it to remove slide. I simply practice the SAME with all action open verify clear and reverify clear before any other action taken.

As to your last statement more NDs are with glocks than any other reason being you have to PULL THE TRIGGER.










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Last edited by Texas45; January 10th, 2017 at 01:48 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by msjdgman View Post
You know, this has all been very very good conversation. I truly appreciate that everyone has kept the dialogue civil on this subject. I've been thinking about something on this though. One of the very first things taught about safe gun handling is CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE GUN IS CLEARED. If that cardinal rule is followed everytime, the rest beyond this is simply semantics.
Absolutely.

My point is that if you use the method S&W designed into the pistol it forces you to make sure its safe. I found in a couple of minutes 2 people killed while using the Glock method, neither one of those would have been injured if they had an M&P and followed the standard take down procedure. There have been a lot more fatalities, and also a lot of people seriously injured, some losing use of a hand permanently.
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