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Self Defense - 9mm or larger?

This is a discussion on Self Defense - 9mm or larger? within the Polls forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; my reasons are pretty much the same as the others. 1. price and availability of 9 mm FMJ and JHP 2. not having to deal ...


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View Poll Results: For Self Defense...
no, I chose 9mm because of a reason other than the price of ammo or concealability. (please reply to this thread to explain) 245 63.64%
yes, but I can't afford anything except the 9mm rounds 25 6.49%
yes, but I can't (comfortably) conceal anything bigger. 34 8.83%
other (please reply to this thread to explain) 81 21.04%
Voters: 385. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 8th, 2008, 03:51 AM   #31
 
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my reasons are pretty much the same as the others.



1. price and availability of 9 mm FMJ and JHP

2. not having to deal with crippled magazines on a full size M&P in MA (i know the real M&P9c's are 12rd. cap)

3. compact for CCW with a lot of the full size convenience and accuracy



I do carry .45, but it's usually in the winter time...... However, it is slightly larger. A .45 that is equal size to the M&P compacts is usually 6 or 7+1, and I like to have at least 8+1 with a spare magazine....
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Old May 8th, 2008, 05:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wr moore' post='136654' date='May 8 2008, 05:54 AM
FWIW, I lugged a 1911 for about 18 years before switching to a 9mm. Not only don't I feel handicapped, I think I'm at an advantage.


You need to change your screen name to Galileo. Your well reasoned enlightenment is going to get you excommunicated from the Church of Moses (John Moses Browning, that is).
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:05 AM   #33
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddG' post='136675' date='May 8 2008, 07:44 AM
You need to change your screen name to Galileo. Your well reasoned enlightenment is going to get you excommunicated from the Church of Moses (John Moses Browning, that is).
As a new member here, I must gather the wood slowly....



(My regular range buddy just bought a Springfield EMP - 9mm variant on the 1911. I love it....)



I'm a little concerned about the 9mm for defensive purposes v.s. the .40 or .45, but given that the .38 Spl. wouldn't have gotten more than a chuckle 40 years ago, when I started carrying - there was a major flap over the "Police" 200gr. v.s. the more standard loads - my only real concern is that you can probably come up with a .45 in the same size package, albeit with a smaller total round count.



My real concern is the usual "shot placement" thing. In extremis, the nastier .45 may do enough damage even when you don't make a very good shot. May.... You probably will practice more with the 9mm (it's cheaper), if the gun doesn't tear up your hand, too.



I think I've carried just about everything (.22, .25Auto, .32Spl, .380Auto, .38Spl, .357Mag, 9mm, and .45ACP, not counting my first .40). The three little ones are, IMO, barely suitable for BUG use. My .380's aren't pleasant enough to shoot well enough to be really happy with them. I can do what's necessary with the rest, but prefer the .45 if I can get away with the gun that chambers it. It bothers me to have to be "certain" that at least a second shot WILL be necessary with the smaller ones, v.s. "might"....



(The .380's - a P3-AT and a PPK/S - are just not fun to shoot. The latter's an original Ulm gun, circa 1968, and is reliable, but not fun. The P3's out of service right now - waiting for a trigger. It was tolerable, but barely. I don't really feel right about carrying something I can't put 50 rounds through in an evening, if I want to. Gloves and other techniques might help, but I prefer a little more reality.)



Just IMHO.... I'm really enjoying the M&P (full size), but probably won't carry it much until the weather turns cold - it's kinda bulky. However, I find it potent enough to fit my "starts with a '4'" rule (), and easily controlled. The M&P itself could use a little more trigger work, but so far it's been fine otherwise.



Now, if you excuse me, I'll go look for the stake....



Regards,
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #34
 
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Wow, I am humbled by the amount of responses to my question!

Thank you very much for all the time that has gone into this discussion.



To wrangle things back into shape: Accuracy IS a moot point, becasue it don't matter what you're shooting if you don't train with it enough to hit your intended target. I shoot in a league where each time we shoot we get 12 shots, 6 in each of two magazines at hand. we get 20-30 seconds to shoot, reload, shoot. They'll give us commands to shoot dominant hand, dominant hand supported, nondominant hand, and non-dominant hand supported. I've loved this part, becasue toward the end of my second year of shooting in this league, every 'heat' of my shots were grouping towards the 10 ring, no matter what hand or hands I was firing with. Definitely an advantage for combat self-defense scenarios. I shoot in this league with a 1911 .45, and a full size M&P 9mm with consistent results on each firearm. Out of 600 points for a perfect score, last league my highest score was 569, my average was 528, and I had no scores below 500. not nearly perfect, but a LOT better than when I started out!



Concealability is, here, a moot point, because I can conceal a full size .45 just as easily as a 9mm compact. I'm a big guy. I'd have trouble concealing a Smith & Wesson 6.5" model 29 or a raging bull , but that's my personal limit! I am being reasoned toward a 9mm model, based solely on the fact of higher capacity, but then I found out that the Springfield XD 45 can carry 13+1... not quite as many as a full size 9mm (17+1 in a fullsize M&P), but lots more than the average .45. My hands are big too, so the increased grip size won't be a problem either!



After reading your posts, I think my problem is this: I'm comparing the 9mm to a .45 and the .45 outshadows the 9mm so much that I'm forgetting that the 9mm is still extremely deadly. right? or is there more?
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:33 AM   #35
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamworth' post='136732' date='May 8 2008, 12:18 PM
After reading your posts, I think my problem is this: I'm comparing the 9mm to a .45 and the .45 outshadows the 9mm so much that I'm forgetting that the 9mm is still extremely deadly. right? or is there more?
tamworth:



You've got most of it, I'm sure.... I'm also big enough to carry a full-size 1911 if it wants to go out, but I don't do it often - mostly a cold weather thing. (I'm a little spoiled by the two little ones.) I've also got a double-stacker that's handy during the Holiday Season. (The M&P .40 will fit that requirement nicely.)



My first really serious concealment piece was a 4" S&W M10HB in .38Spl. (A Charter "Undercover .38" also filled in, but I never trusted myself with it. Still don't....)



And, yes, the 9mm, in the hands of a practiced shooter, will do what's necessary. I'm just concerned that a second shot starts to become necessary whereas the heavier .4's may be more likely to do it with only one.



OH's got some really silly laws with regard to avoiding the situation entirely, and "why did you shoot him twice?" may be an issue in Court later on, too. That makes me prefer the single-shot edge.... (Mas Ayoob and I usually share opinions. He's just a lot more paranoid than I am .)



Some of this reminds me of golfers discussing their next likely set of clubs purchase. All kinds of magic and mysticism, and little else. We know a little more , but....



I think it boils down to "carry what you've trained with, and be confident about that". But TRAIN!



Regards,
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Old May 8th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #36
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddG' post='136675' date='May 8 2008, 01:44 PM
You need to change your screen name to Galileo. Your well reasoned enlightenment is going to get you excommunicated from the Church of Moses (John Moses Browning, that is).


Not necessarily, with the right stocks, the BHP fits me like it was crafted by an elven pistolsmith in the Black Forest during the dark of the moon.



With regard to shot placement, allow me to quote a former SAS training specialist: "We can stand here all day and argue about if one (caliber) is better than another if you get sloppy and put a bullet somewhere other than where it ought to go. What you can't argue about is that if you run out of bullets before you run out of bad guys, you're %^@#%! dead!"
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Old May 8th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wr moore' post='136850' date='May 8 2008, 09:17 PM
Not necessarily, with the right stocks, the BHP fits me like it was crafted by an elven pistolsmith in the Black Forest during the dark of the moon.


You went from excommunicated to geek real quick there, bro.



Quote:
With regard to shot placement, allow me to quote a former SAS training specialist: "We can stand here all day and argue about if one (caliber) is better than another if you get sloppy and put a bullet somewhere other than where it ought to go. What you can't argue about is that if you run out of bullets before you run out of bad guys, you're %^@#%! dead!"


Many years ago, a gentleman with a BHP was taking a class at Gunsite. Except for the hero of our story, everyone had a 1911. This guy was kicking everyone's butt, shooting faster and more accurately than everyone, including the instructors. Eventually, the other students started to comment that the guy with the high capacity 9mm was cleaning up.



So, one of the head instructors sits everyone down in the sand and starts to go through his "why the 1911 is supreme" speech. 9mm is a forty-five on stun, you need a major caliber to do major damage, etc. After this goes on for a bit, our intrepid Hi-Power man raises his hand and is called upon.



"Pardon me," he says with a British accent. "But exactly how many blokes have you killed with a .45?"



"None," the instructor admits.



"Well," says the Brit, "I've shot quite a few of them with my 9mm, and they all died."



Moral of our story: If a guy with a British accent and carrying a BHP shows up to your shooting school in the early 80's and is kicking ass, he's SAS and you shouldn't frak with him.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 06:45 PM   #38
 
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Quote:
My first really serious concealment piece was a 4" S&W M10HB in .38Spl.
And you could still do a whole lot worse than that...
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Old May 8th, 2008, 07:46 PM   #39
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revchuck' post='136855' date='May 8 2008, 08:45 PM
And you could still do a whole lot worse than that...
revchuck:



I took that same M10HB to my CHL class. I was new to 1911's at the time, and didn't trust mine. The 6" Magnum just seemed to ostentatious.



My smaller 1911's just carry better than that old cannon, but it does shoot....



(Come to think of it, our lead instructor was younger than the M10.)



I've added a few semi's to the collection since then. Just hope my wife doesn't sell them for what I said I paid for them....



Regards,
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Old May 8th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David' post='136137' date='May 6 2008, 12:35 AM
well what about a 380? if i wanted to carry a ppk would a 380 be good enough? i'd tend to think so but i'm usually wrong so if i'm not wrong i will be highly suspicious of you if you agree with me.


If I am carrying I have my .380 especially since I am in Florida and you barely have clothes on most of the time lol............Got my 9 at home. Some argue the .380 aint worth carrying, which I disagree. Your going to diffuse most situations just with the threat knowing you have the gun. If I have to use it, I would shoot the bastard in the face, nobody is tough enough to take that.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:10 PM   #41
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMMAssociates' post='136737' date='May 8 2008, 06:33 PM
And, yes, the 9mm, ........................................... I'm just concerned that a second shot starts to become necessary ........................



OH's got some really silly laws with regard to avoiding the situation entirely, and "why did you shoot him twice?" may be an issue in Court later on, too.

Regards,


The report from the FBI's 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop* recommended shooting until the threat ceases. The local DA is gonna quibble with the Feds?



*So does Mas.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #42
 
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wr moore:



I have no argument with Mas or the FBI on this - I just prefer to stick closer to the "probably won't need it" side of the equation.



I was trained to "shoot until you don't need to anymore", and that's what I tell my fellow rent-a-cops, too.



It's just that I've "known" Mas since we were both kids. I'm not quite as paranoid as he is, but after more than 40 years in the game, I've read way too much or something .



I'd like to meet him one of these days.



Regards,
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Old May 8th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMMAssociates' post='136910' date='May 9 2008, 01:50 AM
I have no argument with Mas or the FBI on this - I just prefer to stick closer to the "probably won't need it" side of the equation.


Except that there is no scientific evidence that you'll likely need more shots from a 9mm to stop an attacker compared to .40 or .45 ... the other variables involved are so much greater than a tenth of an inch diameter in wound size that pure luck plays a bigger role than caliber selection.



If anything, the belief that somehow one should expect a .45 to work instantaneously with just one shot is completely contrary to experience. No matter what you are shooting, you keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 11:15 PM   #44
 
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which thread had that ct scan chooch posted of a gunshot wound? it was a ct scan wasn't it? i swore it was in this thread... off to search.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 11:25 PM   #45
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Which one? I posted one from the Visible Human project and one of a guy who got shot with a Glaser rounds. That's all I can think of at the moment.
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