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Do you use an AR/AK for home defense?

This is a discussion on Do you use an AR/AK for home defense? within the Polls forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; Originally Posted by TOF Inside the house my 45 will do. Outside might require something else. Perhaps a big stick. You could always go with ...


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View Poll Results: Do you use an AR/AK for home defense?
Yes 55 56.12%
No 43 43.88%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 10th, 2011, 07:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TOF View Post
Inside the house my 45 will do. Outside might require something else. Perhaps a big stick.


You could always go with nuncucks.
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Old November 10th, 2011, 10:28 PM   #32
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Always the comedian.



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Old November 11th, 2011, 09:04 PM   #33
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Always the comedian.



Nice where you get the dancer. M&P357 with four mags will work for me in South Idaho. Back in California a shotgun with a 6 round tube and speed loaders works better.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 08:49 AM   #34
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The only time I remember pulling the AR from my safe and prepping it for use was when I learned that some suspects at a grow in the hills not all that far from my property had been involved in a shootout with a narcotics task force. They reportedly had semi & FA weapons and at least one of them had escaped into the hills in my general direction. Naturally, I learned about it as I was getting off-duty and was very careful in making my way toward the house as I entered my property.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #35
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Actually I have kept a 20 Gauge Pump SG in the coat closet for my wife. She didn't like the pistols as well for a while. I however feel the 45 is considerably more maneuverable in tight quarters and has more than adequate power. If I lived in Grizzly country I would opt for something bigger but the Black Bear and bad guys in our area can be handled with the 45.

!t is 100 yards to the next residence so over penetration is not much of an issue. By the time it exits a BG then my home it will be going down rapidly.



Let your concience be your guide.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #36
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I live in a condo. Don't want rounds, possibly fired in the dark, shortly after being awaken in the middle of the night, travelling through sheet rock, and killing the neighbor's kids. Primary is an 870, pistol gripped with light/ and always have at least one if not two, pistols at the ready. An AR, or anything rifle, wouldn't be practical for me. 00 shot, and pistol much less likely to kill innocents. In fact, I woudn't even consider it, except as a last ditch resort.



J.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 02:49 PM   #37
 
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00 shot, and pistol much less likely to kill innocents.
Do you really think 00 buck and 9mm and larger won't penetrate walls?



Edited to add these links:



http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm



http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm



http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
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Old November 12th, 2011, 03:26 PM   #38
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Do you really think 00 buck and 9mm and larger won't penetrate walls?



Edited to add these links:



http://www.theboxotr...m/docs/bot1.htm



http://www.theboxotr...m/docs/bot2.htm



http://www.theboxotr...m/docs/bot3.htm


No, I have no such isllusion. However, I do know that the .223 55gn. will do so without doubt, with plenty enough retained energy to kill others. I won't argue the issue with you, and won't bother to read your links. If you live in a condo, and start pumping ..308's out of your rifle through the air, you are totally blind to reality and responsibility. Like one person said above, these kinds of discussion don't end well, so I'll end mine now.



J.
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Old November 13th, 2011, 03:32 AM   #39
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The only thing that i can conclude is that the dynamics of each situation greatly differ from scenario to scenario and what works for one person is totally off for another.



One person might live in a heavily populated area (So yes penetration, especially with drywall, SHOULD be a major issue) others live on a ranch and could care less.

At the same time its also heavily dependant on what setup someone is running. If i am forced, for one reason or another, to have my guns empty on standby, i would probably opt for the platform that loads the fastest (AR or Pistol). If thats not the issue i would go for a Shotgun which also gives me the ammo versatility i might need.



Having trained in CQC scenarios for over 7 years, with Real Steel and airsoft, i can tell you that its not easy to run around your house, trying to clear it, with any platform especially if you are in your pajamas. Like MD says usually whats on the gun is all you are going to have.



For me there is no AR option by law (So thats out of the equation), i live in a populated area but my walls are solid brick and would probably need a 7.62 round to penetrate them and my weapons are empty on standby. So my first choice would be my M&P .40 with a tac reload, if i secure that and have time then i will go for my M4 which is also close by. This is what i train for in HD scenarios. This training for someone else most probably is totally useless.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #40
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Nice where you get the dancer.
J. mentioned "nunchucks" which made me think of Napoleon Dynamite, don't ask why 'cause I have no clue.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 02:34 PM   #41
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No, I have no such isllusion. However, I do know that the .223 55gn. will do so without doubt, with plenty enough retained energy to kill others. I won't argue the issue with you, and won't bother to read your links. If you live in a condo, and start pumping ..308's out of your rifle through the air, you are totally blind to reality and responsibility. Like one person said above, these kinds of discussion don't end well, so I'll end mine now.



J.


J,



Respectfully... I'd read the links! 9mm hollow-points will penetrate some 6 layers of drywall with lethality. 00 Buck, even more. 40, 45, etc, all similar.



Only bird-shot will be stopped by 2 layers of drywall, but unless you're within a few feet of your assailant, won't penetrate HIM either far enough to stop.



5.56 rounds MAY be the best, as they are designed to fragment on impact. YES, they can penetrate 6 layers too, but do so less frequently than handgun or 00 Buck rounds. Maybe smaller #1, or #4 Buck is better, but VERY hard to find. In your predicament, I'd suggest 2-3 rounds of BB to #4 shot shells, followed by buck shot. That way, the first few high-stress blasts won't leave the condo. If he's hurt bad, but still coming after the bird-shot, you'll be able to aim and end things with the buck...



Nobody here is discussing .308 as an alternative!!!



Just sayin, bud...



Jeff
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Old November 14th, 2011, 04:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
J,



Respectfully... I'd read the links! 9mm hollow-points will penetrate some 6 layers of drywall with lethality. 00 Buck, even more. 40, 45, etc, all similar.



Only bird-shot will be stopped by 2 layers of drywall, but unless you're within a few feet of your assailant, won't penetrate HIM either far enough to stop.



5.56 rounds MAY be the best, as they are designed to fragment on impact. YES, they can penetrate 6 layers too, but do so less frequently than handgun or 00 Buck rounds. Maybe smaller #1, or #4 Buck is better, but VERY hard to find. In your predicament, I'd suggest 2-3 rounds of BB to #4 shot shells, followed by buck shot. That way, the first few high-stress blasts won't leave the condo. If he's hurt bad, but still coming after the bird-shot, you'll be able to aim and end things with the buck...



Nobody here is discussing .308 as an alternative!!!



Just sayin, bud...



Jeff


Jeff, maybe we're speaking different ammo, but I can say with absolute confidence that not all 5.56 ammo is "frangible", or breaks up. I'm speaking from 20.5 years in the military shooting ball ammo. No, .308 was not discussed, but 7.62 AK ammo was the second half of the question. Very close. And I stick to my assertion that if you live in a Condo, and you're firing under pressure, having just been awaken from a deep sleep, and pumping AK ammo at you're target, there is a very, very good chance that unless you;re shooting at your front door, AK ammo will definetly pose a dire threat to your neighbors. Given that, I'd like to do a poll to see how many people here on the forum actually have extensive training with the M-16, AR's or newer M4's, Let's say at least 100 hrs or more combined shooting time, or 20 - 30K as a minimum of number of rounds fired, have done this at night, and can deal with the noise and associated muzzle blast. with either the M4 or AK platform. Not quite the same as building an M4 with every concievable device they can think of attached to a gun without a scratch on it. I'm talking realistic live fire night/day exercises or actual combat. I'd have to guess that you'd have to eliminate at least 90% of AK/M4 owners, unless they are prior military, or from a similar background.



Here's my point. If you had a baby in a crib, sleeping in the room next to you, would you really choose an AR (family) or AK, and fire at your agressor, who might be standing between your infant, behind a wall, and yourself with an AK, or a loaded down shotgun, or even frangible loads in a 9mm/.40/.45? I know that you have extensive training, and I would expect it to be a magnitude of order over your average firearm owner, but given what you know, and think it through before you answer, which weapon would you choose, for living in a condo or apartment environment? If you live alone in a house in the country, with your wife in the same bed, well that's a different matter, dump on your aggressor, with extreme violence of action with anything you want to shoot.



I think that your idea of a few 00 mixed with number 4 would be a good idea. I keep 00 buck loaded in my shot gun, and have considered loading down to #6. I'm basing this on shooting #4 (hard to find) or #6 12ga. at various types of targets. Yes, both would penetrate two sheets of drywall, and insulation, but at a drastically reduced velocity@ FPS, and decrease the odds of blowing my neighbors to kingdom come. 7.62 would barely slow down. As a matter of fact, this might be a difficult and expensive experiment, but I would like to chrono a dispersing charge of #6 shot, and 7.62 traveling through a simulated wall of two layers of drywall w/ insulation. That would be hard to do, but if I didn't already have so many projects going on, I'd borrow an AK and do it.

J.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 08:02 PM   #43
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Doc Roberts has some good things to say on the matter over at M4C.



http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869



Personally, it took me exactly one carbine class (EAG) to discover how much more suited a carbine is for home defense over a handgun. No weapon that can be held in two hands is a for-sure manstopper, so I choose the weapon that that I can fire with the greatest amount of precision in the shortest amount of time, with the not-inconsiderable benefits of handling, magazine capacity and reload speed. Like Doc Roberts says, the shotgun is ideal in a static defensive position against a single opponent. Ideally if someone is in my house, I'm at the top of the stairs calling the cops and warning said bad guy I have a gun. But overall, the carbine appears to me to be the much better choice over the shotgun. The handgun is a far third choice.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by jbylake View Post
...have done this at night, and can deal with the noise and associated muzzle blast. with either the M4 or AK platform. Not quite the same as building an M4 with every concievable device they can think of attached to a gun without a scratch on it. I'm talking realistic live fire night/day exercises or actual combat.



Here's my point. If you had a baby in a crib, sleeping in the room next to you, would you really choose an AR (family) or AK, and fire at your agressor, who might be standing between your infant, behind a wall, and yourself with an AK, or a loaded down shotgun, or even frangible loads in a 9mm/.40/.45? I know that you have extensive training, and I would expect it to be a magnitude of order over your average firearm owner, but given what you know, and think it through before you answer, which weapon would you choose, for living in a condo or apartment environment? If you live alone in a house in the country, with your wife in the same bed, well that's a different matter, dump on your aggressor, with extreme violence of action with anything you want to shoot.

J.
I think that these are the most to the point arguments of the entire thread. Firing a weapon in close quarters can be disorienting, in terms of sound & light, on its own for the user as well as other people in the house.



Many people dont train at all under these conditions, other people train but neglect to involve the rest of family which could be fatal.



I ll give you another example similar to the one above:

Somebody breaks in your house and we assume that you are fast and trained enough to grab your weapon and begin a lethal response.

You start firing your weapon in close quarters with no problem BUT your spouce or Kid panics and runs in the wrong direction now your suddenly dealing with a multitude of problems. What now ?



So its not that simple as to just select a platform and park it bedside, loaded, waiting for someone to break down your door.



Again like MD says train Real, consistently and push to find your failure points and in this case involve the entire family.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 08:57 PM   #45
 
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A converted Saiga 7.62 loaded with simple rugged Russian Wolf FMJ. I should preface and say that I'd grab my Mossberg 12g for home defense, with this carbine being a Mad Max scenario tool.
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