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Do you think we need GOD in this country?

This is a discussion on Do you think we need GOD in this country? within the Polls forums, part of the Smith & Wesson MP Forum category; Originally Posted by MaddMax The Great Sprit is my Father and the Earth is my Mother. Never take more from the earth that you are ...


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View Poll Results: Do you think this country would be a far better place if we were lead by GOD fearing people?
Yes 24 66.67%
No 10 27.78%
I don't care 2 5.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 16th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
The Great Sprit is my Father and the Earth is my Mother. Never take more from the earth that you are willing to give in return. I also have a Sprit Guide that has helped guide me through many of lifes trying situations, good and bad.
Thanks for posting this!
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Old May 16th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #32
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WOW where do I start? I have lived life as if there was no God and I now live life as a Christian man who loves Jesus and believes in God. Now this next statement is not 100% true for every man so before you flame me for my words think about what I just said..not 100%

Those who do not know God kill babies through abortion, sell and or use drugs, steal, murder and have no general respect for themselves or their fellow man. Now a Christian is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but take a moment and think about it. Yes some Christians do some of the worst things, no man is perfect. But would life not be better if we all lived by the 10 commandments. I fail too everyday and I don't intentionally try to break them but it happens. People who believe in God I think have a better outlook on life and feel better about themselves. I could go on but enough said. One other thing. I am a God fearing ,Jesus loving christian man who still owns a gun. Walk into my house with evil intent and I will pull the trigger.



What a great poll!
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Old May 16th, 2012, 07:27 PM   #33
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I'll preface this by saying that my group of atheist friends for whom I feel comfortable making these statements is about the same size as the average church study group. I also have a few friends that are VERY devout Christians so I get a bit of that view as well. So we're comparing like to like.



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Those who do not know God kill babies through abortion
I've never had an abortion (obviously). Don't know any atheist women that have had one. Wouldn't counsel someone to have one in most situations. However, I know 3 devout Christian women that have had them. In fact, one of them has picketed the same clinic at which she had her abortion.



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sell and or use drugs
Don't use or sell them myself, don't know anyone at all who sells them, don't know any atheists who use anything other than pot. Know a lot of Christians that use pot, drink beer or other alcohol, or smoke cigarettes, all of which are the same class as pot, really. Know quite a few Christians addicted to harder things like meth or heroin. Now, point in religion's favor here is that all the people I know who are Christian and have a drug problem are Christians trying to get straight in religious de-tox programs. Call it a wash.



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steal
Haven't done it, don't know anyone who has beyond the "Kid stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar" phase. Don't know any Christians who have either. That being said, the church my family belongs to was just ripped off to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars by one of the Christian ladies that works there. Don't know her, so I can't use her in my stats.



Quote:
murder
Don't know anyone period who's done this. However, nationally, atheists show up on death row about 1/10th as often as their size in the general public. Meaning that if we assume conviction rates are equal across religions (or lack thereof), atheists are only 10% as likely to commit murder as someone who believes in god.



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have no general respect for themselves or their fellow man
Really? My experience has always been that it's more likely an atheist will help someone they don't know. More likely that an atheist will go to great lengths to take care of a stranger. More likely that an atheist will try to make the best of things now. Why? Because we don't believe there's anything after this life. Our entire existence is what we personally choose to make of it right here, right now. If we do good works and make a difference, we've done something positive with out lives and made them mean something. It's up to us, we don't get a free pass for believing in the right myth.



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Now a Christian is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but take a moment and think about it. Yes some Christians do some of the worst things, no man is perfect.
Crusades.

Discrimination.

Lynchings.

Torture.

Burnings.



These are just a few of the delights brought to you by the Christian religion.



Now, before you get all defensive, keep in mind I don't think that every Christian does these things. Christianity doesn't make someone more or less of a monster. That's just in their makeup and upbringing. Being Christian doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't even help. Being Christian doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't even hurt. Same thing with being atheist. Your religious beliefs do not make you a good or bad person.



Quote:
But would life not be better if we all lived by the 10 commandments.
That would be horrible! Sure, there's some good line items in the Decalogue that are good ideas just on a general philosophical basis. No murder, no stealing, etc. However, there's some really dumb ones. You have to admit that the graven images thing and the "no other gods before me" thing is just Yahweh being petty and jealous. He goes through 4 things basically telling you he's the boss before he even gets down to how to behave properly. On a list of important things to do and not to do in life, Don't Kill People needs to be higher than 6th!





Look, atheists are no better or worse than christians because they're just humans, exactly like Christians are just humans.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 04:37 AM   #34
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Wow. I don't know where to start. Well I guess first I disagree. You mentioned Christians that you knew, well I'm sorry to say but Christians arnt always who you think they are. Christian =Christ like. You have no way of knowing what is truly in there hearts. That's being said I see your reason ing on how atheist are good people and may be so but the point of this topic is a TRUE Christian knows the y will have to stand before the almighty GOD on judgment day and answer for what they have done and in Jeremiah 32:19 the bible says "great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give everyone according to his ways, and according to the fruits of his doing. " so the the more good you do the more rewards you will have. But first and formost you must invite the lord into your heart.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 10:26 AM   #35
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You're using the No True Scotsman argument. It's a commonly understood logical fallacy. Effectively, it boils down to the fact that *you* don't get to decide if someone is Christian or not. They are if they self-identify as such, and meet the commonly accepted definition of being Christian vis. believing in god, Jesus, etc.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #36
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First I thought you were just alittle confused but now I see that you truly are misguided. Have no way of knowing what you feel in your heart. Can we agree on that? You call your self an atheist (out spokenly I mite add). Everyone around you assumes you are what you say you are. For all I know you just say that to be in the cool croud. The point is we have both see people ( I know I have) who say the are something different than what they are. On anything Christian athirst or whatever.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #37
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What does an Atheist know about Christianity? They don't believe, so they don't know.....



I don't believe in ghosts, so I think all ghost hunters are fakes. I have never seen a ghost, but I have evidence of Christians.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #38
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What does an Atheist know about Christianity? They don't believe, so they don't know.....
In a survey conducted last year by a major public policy institute, it was found that, on average, atheists were able to answer more questions about the Christian faith correctly than Christians were. The reason for this, of course, is that most atheists didn't arrive at their convictions by accident. Most of them were brought up religious and lost the faith as they began to question all the huge problems with religion. Most of them fought tooth and nail to stay faithful because it's easier and more comforting. Not to mention that Christians pressure us to defend our beliefs daily and yet call foul when we do it right back. Contrast that with a lot of people who self-identify as Christians only going to church once or twice a year and being, really, just Garage Christians and you can see the problem for knowledge.



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I don't believe in ghosts, so I think all ghost hunters are fakes. I have never seen a ghost, but I have evidence of Christians.
You screwed up your comparison there. Christians are equivalent to ghost hunters. God is equivalent to ghosts. So, we see ghost hunters. Heck, they're even on TV! We also see Christians. They're on TV too! However, there's no evidence for either ghosts or god that stands up to rigorous examination, so that places both ghosts and god in the same category. This means that you should, logically, have the same stance on Christians as you do on ghosts.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #39
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Apparently that makes you one of the no votes, I'm with the vast majority on this one because I believe that a country run by men and women with a strong moral compass, and a belief in a higher authority, is better than a country run by a self-obsessed narcissist bent on punishing those who work hard and rewarding those who don't.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #40
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Apparently that makes you one of the no votes, I'm with the vast majority on this one because I believe that a country run by men and women with a strong moral compass, and a belief in a higher authority, is better than a country run by a self-obsessed narcissist bent on punishing those who work hard and rewarding those who don't.
See, here's where you go right off the rails. I'm totally with you on leaders with strong morals. I'm totally with you on self-obsessed narcissists not being good leaders. Where you go truly, utterly wrong is believing that religious faith has anything to do with either of those attributes. Both atheists and Christians can have equally strong morals. Both atheists and Christians can be equally self-obsessed and narcissistic. Believing in god does not magically make you a good, moral person. Not believing in god does not magically make you an immoral baby-eater.
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Old May 18th, 2012, 03:10 AM   #41
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Do you think the country was a BETTER place in the early 1800?
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Old May 18th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #42
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Where you go truly, utterly wrong...
That's only your (minority, outvoted) opinion, no actual truth involved, and you'll get very few takers here. Being belligerent doesn't make you right, just belligerent.



While I respect your right to believe as you wish, or to not believe anying if that's what you prefer, I choose not to subject myself to your misguided animadversions. You've offered very little substance to this thread, and to these forums in general.
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Old May 18th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #43
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Faith



Professor : You are a Christian, arenít you, son ?



Student : Yes, sir.



Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?



Student : Absolutely, sir.



Professor : Is GOD good ?



Student : Sure.



Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?



Student : Yes.



Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didnít. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?



(Student was silent.)



Professor: You canít answer, can you ? Letís start again, young fella. Is GOD good?



Student : Yes.



Professor: Is satan good ?



Student : No.



Professor: Where does satan come from ?



Student : From Ö GOD Ö



Professor: Thatís right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?



Student : Yes.



Professor: Evil is everywhere, isnít it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?



Student : Yes.



Professor: So who created evil ?



(Student did not answer.)



Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, donít they?



Student : Yes, sir.



Professor: So, who created them ?



(Student had no answer.)



Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?



Student : No, sir.



Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?



Student : No , sir.



Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?



Student : No, sir. Iím afraid I havenít.



Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?



Student : Yes.



Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesnít exist. What do you say to that, son?



Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.



Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.



Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?



Professor: Yes.



Student : And is there such a thing as cold?



Professor: Yes.



Student : No, sir. There isnít.



(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)



Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we donít have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we canít go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.



(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)



Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?



Professor: Yes. What is night if there isnít darkness?



Student : Youíre wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isnít it? In reality, darkness isnít. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldnít you?



Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?



Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.



Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?



Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science canít even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.



Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?



Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.



Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?



(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)



Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?



(The class was in uproar.)



Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professorís brain?



(The class broke out into laughter. )



Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professorís brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?



(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)



Professor: I guess youíll have to take them on faith, son.



Student : That is it sir Ö Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.



By the way, that student was EINSTEIN.
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Old May 18th, 2012, 11:54 AM   #44
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Do you think the country was a BETTER place in the early 1800?
I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at here. Could you clarify where you're going with this so I can give you a better answer?



My first reaction is to say that no, I don't think it was better in the early 1800s. Slavery, primitive medicine, lack of science and technology, etc. Science has done wonderful things for us over the last 200 years!





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Originally Posted by KRWeiss View Post
That's only your (minority, outvoted) opinion, no actual truth involved, and you'll get very few takers here. Being belligerent doesn't make you right, just belligerent.



While I respect your right to believe as you wish, or to not believe anying if that's what you prefer, I choose not to subject myself to your misguided animadversions. You've offered very little substance to this thread, and to these forums in general.
You're right, as a brand new gun owner who's reading like mad trying to learn from this forum, I should already have amassed tremendous technical knowledge that I can share with everyone!



As far as backing up my assertion that religion doesn't make you a good or moral person, go look up the demographics on religious affiliation in prison populations. I'll wait.



And as to your assertion that the majority agrees with you on this forum, that is perhaps true. Majority opinion isn't always right. The majority once believed the earth was flat and that the sun went round the earth. They were quite clearly wrong. Furthermore, a 1.3% majority isn't exactly a huge majority! Protestant Christianity only accounts for 51.3% of the population in the US. Since I frequently hear conservative Protestants claim that Catholics, Mormons, etc aren't Christian, you can't count those people in your majority. The more interesting stat is that 28% of people who start out Christian leave their faith. That's not going to take too long to whittle away at that 1.3% overage. These are publicly available stats, btw, you can look them up yourself.





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Originally Posted by myst40 View Post
Long anecdote
Well, first, you'll find that physicists aren't as impressed with Einstein as the general public is. For context, that's what I went to college to study (though I'm a mechanic now because the money is so much better), I'm married to a physicist, and my business partner is a physicist. Sure, they're all impressed and whatnot with General Relativity, but it's names like Dirac that really get a physicist to sit up and take notice. Same goes with Stephen Hawking, btw. Public thinks he's amazing, scientific community goes "Eh, he's had some ok ideas.". Second, I would like to see real documentation that Einstein said that (not just a quote list online) because in several places it shows a lack of basic understanding of the scientific method. There's also large gaps in scientific knowledge displayed and only a small portion of that could be written off as "we didn't know that yet". It's also written in language that wasn't common during the time that Einstein was in school. There's idiom used that wasn't in common use until the late 20th/early 21st century. Presuming, for the moment, that it actually was spoken in a similar form by Einstein, he's wrong. Flat out, he's wrong. The way he attacks evolution is the way an uneducated Creationist would do it, not the way any scientist would do it. This reinforces my suspicion that this dialog is mis-attributed to him.



Now, to address the content of what you wrote:

The professor opens with a really badly done form of Epicurus's argument for the non-existence of god. That's one that's been argued for, literally, thousands of years, given that he lived 341-270BCE. He follows up with another badly formed argument roughly from rationalist grounds that evidence is required to establish truth. OK, so far so good, even if the way it's phrased is pretty bad. In philosophy and religious debate, the best minds in the world in the last thousand years have not come up with a counter-arugment that doesn't devolve to "I believe in something irrationally and therefore I declare that to be truth."



Then the alleged Einstein smacks the professor around a bit with semantics. While I think that's hilariously fun to do, in truth it only makes your opponent look ignorant. It does nothing to shore up your position. It also goes into an argument which has nothing to do with science OR religion that often gets called "The Problem of the Duck-Shaped Hole", which is basically philosophers grumbling about wither the absolute lack of something is a different thing. Pretty much pointless to the argument for or against religion, really.



The attack on evolution by natural selection that follow is just, well, utterly ignorant. It's made by someone who's completely uneducated about basic biology and the scientific method. We *have* seen evolution actually happen, in real time. We *do* have evidence that proves it's an on-going process. It's not an opinion, it's a scientific fact. It also has nothing to do with the actual argument at play here, lending further support to the fact that this isn't a real dialog, it's tripe written by a religious person with an agenda. By the way, the bits attacking thought are similarly ignorant of modern science. We're doing a lot of that kind of study in labs these days. While the totality of the function isn't yet understood, and won't be for years, the mechanics are either understood or close to being so.
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Old May 18th, 2012, 12:05 PM   #45
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You have seen evolution (as mentioned) with you own eyes?
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