I'm ready to purchse a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. I'm looking at the mossberg JIC but nobody has one in stock. If you know where to find one or have a suggestion on a better unit please post it here.
Then you've never tried a Benelli M1 S90 my friend. They were originally designed for combat and their reliability and simplicity reflects it. They feed anything from reduced recoil 2-3/4 to 3" magnums with no adjustment. Heck you can mix and match and it won't care. The inertia operating system absorbs most of the recoil and is absolutely reliable. Best of all is the ability to double or triple tap the much feared drugged out gang ganging bad guy with 00 buck in the split second it takes said bad guy to charge down the hall and still have 6 more on tap for his friends. No shotgun cycles faster. That's right with an M1 S90 you can do 12ga double taps just about as fast and accurate as you can double tap an M&P45. And if a bad guy is superman bad enough to still have any fight left in him after taking 2-3rds of 00 buck square in the chest from 10 feet then it's time to break out the kryptonite slugs.
I took a self defense shotty class this weekend and my Benelli brought a grin to the instructor face. It's his favorite tactical shotty and he makes the majority of his living training LE agencies.
Then you've never tried a Benelli M1 S90 my friend. They were originally designed for combat and their reliability and simplicity reflects it. They feed anything from reduced recoil 2-3/4 to 3" magnums with no adjustment. Heck you can mix and match and it won't care. The inertia operating system absorbs most of the recoil and is absolutely reliable. Best of all is the ability to double or triple tap the much feared drugged out gang ganging bad guy with 00 buck in the split second it takes said bad guy to charge down the hall and still have 6 more on tap for his friends. No shotgun cycles faster. That's right with an M1 S90 you can do 12ga double taps just about as fast and accurate as you can double tap an M&P45. And if a bad guy is superman bad enough to still have any fight left in him after taking 2-3rds of 00 buck square in the chest from 10 feet then it's time to break out the kryptonite slugs.
I took a self defense shotty class this weekend and my Benelli brought a grin to the instructor face. It's his favorite tactical shotty and he makes the majority of his living training LE agencies.
Benelli does make a fine shotgun, but when our folks tested them, they weren't as reliable as the 870s we've used for years. I know a couple of the folks that do the testing and they get examples of almost everything new that comes out to test. Price didn't factor into it at all as it was purely based upon durability and reliability. They keep testing hoping to come up with something better as an all-around shotgun, but haven't found it yet.
I've shot sub-3" groups (3-5 rounds normally) at 100yds using Rem and Win slugs out of my issue 870 with a 14.5" barrel and iron sights (smooth bore). Surprised the heck out of me the first time, but I've duplicated it to demonstrate the point (I'm an instructor)....lots of wide eyes when they see it. I've seen them abused pretty badly but never seen them fail. R,
While were at it, does anyone have a Remington 1100 Tac 2? I'm thinking about getting one for a step up above my 870 for 3-gun use but I don't want one as long as the Tac 4?
If you've got one how reliable has it been? Any issues at all? Does it have specific ammo that it needs to cycle correctly? Any down sides to it that I may not realize? I had a Benelli M1 for a while but it wouldn't cycle anything but full power loads so I dumped it since I didn't want to pay all the money for defensive rounds just for training and matches...
Benelli does make a fine shotgun, but when our folks tested them, they weren't as reliable as the 870s we've used for years. I know a couple of the folks that do the testing and they get examples of almost everything new that comes out to test. Price didn't factor into it at all as it was purely based upon durability and reliability. They keep testing hoping to come up with something better as an all-around shotgun, but haven't found it yet.
I love 870s and a pump as reliable and well made as an 870 might just be ever so sightly more reliable than a Benelli. But only to about the same degree that an M1903 Springfield is more reliable than an M14. Manual will always be slightly more reliable but you give up a heck of a tactical advantage to get that extra .01%. But honestly the fastest way to get a Benelli to short cycle is to hang too much stuff off of it. A lot of LE tends to want a light, and laser, and an ammo saddle, and a red dot, and a small tactical nuke launcher...
You can't do that with an inertia system - there's a one gegaw limit.
The second fastest is "limpwristed" shots from the hip. That's why the pistol grip, it adds just enough resistance when shooting underarm to keep things booming along. Then again it's possible to short stroke an 870 when the adrenaline is flowing. But for the purposes of this conversation and a homeowner there is nothing that beats the tactical advantage of a 00 buck doubletap at hallway distances. Nothing short of a howitzer will more surely stop an attacker.
FWIW LAPD just approved the Benelli M4 for privately purchased on-duty use.
I love 870s and a pump as reliable and well made as an 870 might just be ever so sightly more reliable than a Benelli. But only to about the same degree that an M1903 Springfield is more reliable than an M14. Manual will always be slightly more reliable but you give up a heck of a tactical advantage to get that extra .01%. But honestly the fastest way to get a Benelli to short cycle is to hang too much stuff off of it. A lot of LE tends to want a light, and laser, and an ammo saddle, and a red dot, and a small tactical nuke launcher...
You can't do that with an inertia system - there's a one gegaw limit.
The second fastest is "limpwristed" shots from the hip. That's why the pistol grip, it adds just enough resistance when shooting underarm to keep things booming along. Then again it's possible to short stroke an 870 when the adrenaline is flowing. But for the purposes of this conversation and a homeowner there is nothing that beats the tactical advantage of a 00 buck doubletap at hallway distances. Nothing short of a howitzer will more surely stop an attacker.
FWIW LAPD just approved the Benelli M4 for privately purchased on-duty use.
Oh, I don't dislike Benelli's at all....I wouldn't have an issue carrying one once I got a chance to wring it out carefully. Also, I think our testing is pretty darned extreme (not what the average home defense situation is going to entail) so it's not a perfect comparison.
I'm 100% with you on a reliable shotgun being the #1 choice for home use. My wife is pretty petite, so she has a 20ga with #1 buck handy in the bedroom for when I'm not around. Modified choke puts a 15-18" spread at the longest distances possible in the house...which should handle things nicely! My 870 stays loaded with 00 and I have an M4 and an MP-5/10 (10mm) for times when the 870 isn't the best choice
don't have an 870 so won't speak to that but have experience with Mossberg pumps. The 590 is a darn good shotgun but for my purposes I prefer the 500,the one with the 5 shot mag tube and 18 1/2" barrel.....and a wood stock. This 500 is lighter than the 590, and I don't feel handicapped by the mag capacity.It sets me up with a 6 rd gun and if that ain't enough i'm in over my head.I like the wood stock, I trim the stock and install Hogue ez fit pad(good pad for the money) to a 13" LOP.I can shoot that stock without my thumb bangin my nose and the LOP and 18 1/2" barrel keep the gun as short as possible without going SBS. And the wood makes for a better club should it come to that.Sights go Marbles tritium bead....that's it.For a first shotgun I usually recommend the Mossberg 500 combo gun. When setting up your gun think more about what you really need that what looks "cool".....cool can cost a fortune
Depends on your budget of course. I've owned a Mossberg 500 590a1 and 930. I absolutely loved all of them and currently still have the 930. I prefer the tang mounted safety and lack of a lifter on the Mossbergs over the Remington. I find the Mossbergs are lighter and have a shorter throw. The Remington's feel more solid and don't have as much rattle to them.
My department uses the 870 police which is also a very robust and reliable gun. I have had issues with newer 870s though.
I wouldn't bet my life on a 410, for home defense a 12 gauge is the best advice, my longtime favorite from back when I was a Deputy, any reliable 12 gauge pump will do, and at the short range for home defense you don't need buckshot, our standard load for inside use was #4 Duck & Pheasant, thats a high brass load. One of our Deputies unfortunately had to use this on a barricaded perp, range was less than 10 feet the ME said he was dead before he hit the floor, center chest wound, the heart was shredded.
Until the last two posts, I was about to ask about the need for buck shot and slugs for HD.... What is the typical range of a HD encounter, if there is such a thing?
But...whatever you use you need to pattern test it to at least 25-30 feet before relying on it. 25-30 feet is about the longest open sight line in most homes so you want to make sure your ammo and gun still keep a decently tight group within that distance especially with lighter loads.
#3 or #4 is about the lightest I would recommend myself, anything else can have penetration issues with even a good heavy denim/leather jacket unless at point blank range. Sheet rock and clothing react differently when it comes to penetration so you have to keep that in mind. Personally I use 9 pellet 00 Buck since I don't have to worry about over penetration. While my 590A1 has always had my heart, I keep a very well tested and proven (mine at least) KSG w/ weapon light (girlfriend can't shoulder the 590A1 properly despite it only having a 12" LOP) loaded with buck and slugs on a concealed set up beside the bed.
Grab the shorter version of the Beretta 1301 Competition. Mine is 24" with a Nordic tube and special follower, but the 21" still takes a Nordic tube...and is reputably the fastest cycling shotgun out there. My heavy set military friends can't hold her down through firing all rounds...yes it's that quick...quicker tahn anyone would need. Currently I have it set for 9+1 and can handle any choke you like. Doubles as a great gun for sporting clays, and all my upland hunting. Front sight is fiber optic already, the loading port is already chamfered for fast loads. Too many good features to list. One bonus with this over any other gas semi's is that the gas action if NOT going to foul like the Remmy or the Benelli. It's been flawless so far and eats anything I've fed her.
If you train with it and know it's reliability then that is totally up to you if you think its good enough to defend you and your loved ones life with it in my opinion.
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