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shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns

This is a discussion on shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns within the Shotguns forums, part of the Armory category; Uh huh. You keep on justifying that price tag. Who do you think would win in a 15 yard stand off? Bad guy with an ...


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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:26 AM   #16
 
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Uh huh. You keep on justifying that price tag. Who do you think would win in a 15 yard stand off? Bad guy with an AR, or a Bad guy with a 12 gauge? I would predict 1 toe tag, and 1 ICU. Neither would win I say. But... someone lives...



Well... I'll respond... give me a second... or 30. Gawd knows the grammar police are abound in some forums...
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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #17
 
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Quote:
Shall we create a poll? Who shall win A at 15 yards... The bad guy with the AR... or the bad guy with the 12 gauge... I would predict one ICU victim, and one toe tag. But anyways...




Truth doesn't bend for popular opinion.



I've been "polling" the most credible experts I can find for about 15 years.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:38 AM   #18
 
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Well then... I guess you win.



However, to create such a controversy for ~$700 less is interesting...
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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #19
 
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I didn't realize we were talking about finances(or that it was a contest).



Granted,that tends to be the last thing on my mind in these areas.



...And no I'm not rich,nor do I have "money to blow".



I've spent years sacrificing in other areas in order to get two quality ARs put together and set-up how I wanted.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #20
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246649' date='Mar 11 2010, 03:47 AM
I didn't realize we were talking about finances(or that it was a contest).



Granted,that tends to be the last thing on my mind in these areas.



...And no I'm not rich,nor do I have "money to blow".



I've spent years sacrificing in other areas in order to get two quality ARs put together and set-up how I wanted.


Right and you have a .223 or a 5.56 round to show for it. Now what are your ranges and what kind of damage do you realistically expect at what ranges?



Congrats. You got yourself a coyote rifle at twice the cost of a .38.



*sigh I dunno where this is going. small plunk plunks on a paper target... or what. Shoot... I can brag about shooting my GF's cousin's .117 on bulls... what?



The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up. Save some money.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 03:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246644' date='Mar 11 2010, 04:11 AM
The .223/5.56 has less of a risk from penetrating through walls and such because the round fragments and sheds velocity very quickly when passing through them.The 5.56 is safer than 00 buck or even handgun rounds in this area.The FBI has studied this extensively.



"Energy" is about as useless of an indicator of performance as you'll see.It's like judging a cars speed based solely on horsepower without taking any other factors into account.



More on "energy" and "knockdown power"...



1



2



3













I have alot of other links,literature,examples of ballistics gel,etc saved...



But it's late...Maybe tomorrow.



Edit-Later than I thought...Keep catching typos.I'm sure there's still more.
I wonder how a 1oz slug at 1650fps would compare?
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Old March 11th, 2010, 04:16 AM   #22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246651' date='Mar 11 2010, 04:56 AM
Congrats. You got yourself a coyote rifle at twice the cost of a .38.
Coyote rifle my a$$. Tell that to the military. They clear houses with carbines, not pistols or shotguns. The military today uses shotguns for only very specialized jobs such as breaching, not CQC. And a pistol is a secondary weapon in case the primary malfs or is out of ammo. Who do you think has more practical experience, you and YouTube, or the military?



Quote:
The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up.
This is just so wrong. It sounds to me as if you are trying to justify not spending the money for a superior HD weapon.



A carbine trumps a shotgun in every way that is important to me for HD - it is shorter, lighter, has less recoil, holds more ammo and is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately if followup shots are needed or if multiple targets are involved.



I don't know about you, but I (and most people) can shoot a carbine much more accurately in CQC than either a shotgun or a pistol. Oh, that's right, you said you had never shot a carbine.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 04:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246651' date='Mar 11 2010, 03:56 AM
The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up. Save some money.


+1



For those drinking too heavily of the spiked AR "cool-aid," drink some water and dry out a bit. Let us try to be realistic in our thinking and not so fanatical. Use a preferred weapons system, practice and train with it. The shotgun and the AR are different tools for different situations.



Compare the two
  • ease of use
  • reliability
  • maintenance
  • available loads
  • available training
  • accessories
  • cost of operation
  • etc



For fun...

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html



A lever action .30-30 is also a decent HD weapon.



I was bored and wrote a Haiku and another poem.





Intruder found

Shotgun unleashes

Coroner called





One shot, one kill,

Can I afford this cleaning bill?

One shot, one splat,

I have to clean a bad guy off the mat.

One shot, one slain,

Use the Clorox to clean the stain.

One shot, one splat,

Don't let the cat eat that.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 04:33 AM   #24
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonuscg' post='246664' date='Mar 11 2010, 08:19 AM
For those drinking too heavily of the spiked AR "cool-aid," drink some water and dry out a bit. Let us try to be realistic in our thinking and not so fanatical.
Same can be said for the shotgun crowd.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 05:44 AM   #25
 
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Guys it's 2010...............







why should you have to choose???







The "MasterKey"

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Old March 11th, 2010, 08:00 AM   #26
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin12Gauge' post='246662' date='Mar 11 2010, 07:16 AM
Coyote rifle my a$$. Tell that to the military. They clear houses with carbines, not pistols or shotguns. The military today uses shotguns for only very specialized jobs such as breaching, not CQC. And a pistol is a secondary weapon in case the primary malfs or is out of ammo. Who do you think has more practical experience, you and YouTube, or the military?





This is just so wrong. It sounds to me as if you are trying to justify not spending the money for a superior HD weapon.



A carbine trumps a shotgun in every way that is important to me for HD - it is shorter, lighter, has less recoil, holds more ammo and is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately if followup shots are needed or if multiple targets are involved.



I don't know about you, but I (and most people) can shoot a carbine much more accurately in CQC than either a shotgun or a pistol. Oh, that's right, you said you had never shot a carbine.


Dude. You've been drinking the AR Kool Aid. I can't help you. AR owners have pretty much always been known as a snooty bunch.



I'm glad you enjoy your weapon, and good luck. If it's most comfortable to you, rock on.



You can't run from the facts, though.



That is all.





To the OP... obviously HD is very subjective. Shoot whatevers most comfortable to YOU.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 08:17 AM   #27
 
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I think the results of this test on wall penetration shows positives and negatives of some of the platforms discussed.



http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html



There's a summary table at the end if you don't want to read through the whole thing.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 09:12 AM   #28
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Do your reading folks.... before you spout off.



www.theboxotruth.com



AR vs 12G 00-Buck, Wall Penetration Test



http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm







I own an AR Carbine.

I own a Rem 870 12 Gauge.

I own a safe-full of pistols.



The AR resides beneath the bed.



In answer to the OP.... If you have the money, buy the AR. You will ALWAYS be able to buy shotguns... Access to ARs may come and go with the tide of politics.



Jeff
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Old March 11th, 2010, 09:20 AM   #29
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWard' post='246700' date='Mar 11 2010, 12:12 PM
In answer to the OP.... If you have the money, buy the AR. You will ALWAYS be able to buy shotguns... Access to ARs may come and go with the tide of politics.



Jeff


one of the main reasons im considering an AR
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Old March 11th, 2010, 09:21 AM   #30
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246691' date='Mar 11 2010, 12:00 PM
Dude. You've been drinking the AR Kool Aid. I can't help you. AR owners have pretty much always been known as a snooty bunch.



I'm glad you enjoy your weapon, and good luck. If it's most comfortable to you, rock on.



You can't run from the facts, though.



That is all.





To the OP... obviously HD is very subjective. Shoot whatevers most comfortable to YOU.




"Run from the facts"?







It would seem(at least up to this point) us "snooty AR koolaid drinkers" have only needed to "run" from others hurt feelings,insults,and cute little poems.
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