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shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns

10K views 63 replies 21 participants last post by  Big_Grumpy 
#1 ·
ive been debating this as i await my tax returns.....i was dead set on getting a shotgun (remington 870/mossberg 500), but started looking at some ar's at the local gun shop.....any thoughts on which you would buy first? it looks like it will be one or the other (tax gods willing) . obviously cost-wise, the shotgun has an edge. I know nobody can make the decision for me, but maybe there are some things im not considering
thanks guys!
 
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#4 ·
IMHO, a shotgun and it's operating cost are a lot lower than an AR.



If you have neither a center fire rifle or a shotgun get the shotgun first. Shotguns are versatility and close quarters kings. From small birds to big brown bear. One can take "dad's" innocent looking 12 gauge pump and turn it into a door breaching, street sweeping, large and in charge command presence tool.
 
#5 ·
Kinda apples and oranges.. lol



I paid i think $350(ish) for my 590 mossberg.







Spent around $100 for a Knoxx Spec Ops Adj Recoil-Reducing Stock







Dropped about $20 @ the gun show for this cool little scabbard for it to travel in.....





Wife got me a couple bandoleers to keep and carry extra rounds for X-mas and i bought tons of extra ammo

from ammo-to-go and i'm BEYOND set up.






I just bought my very first Ar-15 (style) rifle for G&R tactical (insert blatant sponsor plug.. lol)

I got the very best deal i could find on a S&W M&P 15 so i got the Black M&P 15 M.O.E. for $940 (not counting shipping and my FFL cost)





I ALREADY have an order in at MidwayUSA for.....

.A soft case (i didn't know S&W came with a hard case, i thought only bushmasters did)

.A couple extra 30rd mags (who knows how long S&W will take to get my free 5 promo mags)

.223 cleaning set (brushes/ect..)



I hit a wal-mart and got a couple 100rd value packs

and now looking at what optics and other fun goodies i want to put on it.

(it's looking as if i may need to sell a few vital organs just to start getting some of the things i want)





SoOoooo i guess it depends on how much you want to spend.
 
#6 ·
I guess it's a matter of preference. Where do you think you'll feasibly address a threat? Inside 20 yards? Shotgun w/ buck will stop it cold.. If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...



Though I've never fired an AR, I can't picture it being much more than a coyote rifle at best. My thoughts are: at close range... .45 till you get to your shotgun. Shotgun out to 40 yards (reliably) with slugs... and then it's time for a 30-.06 or 308.



I don't want to mess around.



EDIT: Of course, not to belittle the AR... shot placement plays a BIG factor... and is more than capable of handling all 3 scenarios in the proper hands, I'm sure. But under duress... I would think the ante gets upped considerably. A 12 gauge shotgun with 1 shot of 00 buck, unleashes the equivalent of about 7 shots of an AR at closer range.



BTW... I'm a big 870 fan... Can't go wrong. No frills, no "props", proven simplicity and reliability. I love mine.
 
#7 ·
If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing...


Since civilians aren't restricted to using m855 like general NATO forces are, with good ammo, .223/5.56 in the AR platform is extremely lethal to 2 legged predators.
 
#9 ·
I guess it's a matter of preference. Where do you think you'll feasibly address a threat? Inside 20 yards? Shotgun w/ buck will stop it cold.. If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...



Though I've never fired an AR, I can't picture it being much more than a coyote rifle at best. My thoughts are: at close range... .45 till you get to your shotgun. Shotgun out to 40 yards (reliably) with slugs... and then it's time for a 30-.06 or 308.



I don't want to mess around.



EDIT: Of course, not to belittle the AR... shot placement plays a BIG factor... and is more than capable of handling all 3 scenarios in the proper hands, I'm sure. But under duress... I would think the ante gets upped considerably. A 12 gauge shotgun with 1 shot of 00 buck, unleashes the equivalent of about 7 shots of an AR at closer range.



BTW... I'm a big 870 fan... Can't go wrong. No frills, no "props", proven simplicity and reliability. I love mine.




It sounds like you think the .45 trumps th 5.56?



If given the choice,never take a handgun over a rifle.The .223/5.56 has far better terminal ballistics than a .45.With any decent round anyway.



I'll take the AR over the shotgun for HD hands down.



For starters...



5.56 75gr TAP is a formidable round and relatively safe(penetration through walls etc) compared to handgun rounds or 00 buck(what I'd be using in a shotgun).Basically it has the best balance of performing extremely well at what you want it to do with the least downside.



Much higher capacity.



Faster follow up shots(especially relative to a pump action).



The shotgun spread at typical HD ranges(again,with the 00 buck you should be using) is of little value...You still have to aim to get good hits on target.Despite what you may hear.



Typically a little more compact than a shotgun.



These are just off of the top of my head that are specific to just HD.I feel it has alot of other advantages as well.



Not that a shotgun isn't a good choice for HD.It just isn't the be all that it's made out to be.I feel the AR is better for the job.
 
#11 ·
If given the choice,never take a handgun over a rifle.The .223/5.56 has far better terminal ballistics than a .45.With any decent round anyway.


Yeah, you'll blow the skin/muscle off of someone, but not necessarily penetrate to the vitals for stopping power. I'll take a .45.



Much higher capacity.
Not needed.

The shotgun spread at typical HD ranges(again,with the 00 buck you should be using) is of little value...You still have to aim to get good hits on target.Despite what you may hear.
Absolutely. But it still boils down to a blast the size of a fist, vs. a size of a pen.

Not that a shotgun isn't a good choice for HD.It just isn't the be all that it's made out to be.I feel the AR is better for the job.


Have to wholeheartedly disagree there. Not for the price, and I hate to say this dang term..."stopping power".
 
#10 ·
Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...


Not trying to call you out, but more or less set the record straight. Crunching a few numbers the .223 should have around 7 times as much energy as each 00buck pellet. With the spread pattern of a shotgun it wouldn't be accurate to determine the energy of all the pellets because they are all producing separate holes. Also the 223 has nearly the same weight packed into a smaller diameter, so should penetrate easier. Again not trying to call you out, I'm just interested in where you got your info.







Remington 3in magnum 12ga buckshot



373.4m/s (1225fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)



1/2*0.00349kg*(373.4m/s)^2=243.3J of energy per each 8.4mm pellet





Winchester 62grn 223 fmj



944.9m/s (3100fps)

0.00402kg (62grains)



1/2*0.00402kg*(944.9m/s)^2= 1794.6J of energy per 5.6mm bullet.
 
#12 ·
Not trying to call you out, but more or less set the record straight. Crunching a few numbers the .223 should have around 7 times as much energy as each 00buck pellet. With the spread pattern of a shotgun it wouldn't be accurate to determine the energy of all the pellets because they are all producing separate holes. Also the 223 has nearly the same weight packed into a smaller diameter, so should penetrate easier. Again not trying to call you out, I'm just interested in where you got your info.







Remington 3in magnum 12ga buckshot



373.4m/s (1225fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)



1/2*0.00349kg*(373.4m/s)^2=243.3J of energy per each 8.4mm pellet





Winchester 62grn 223 fmj







944.9m/s (3100fps)

0.00402kg (62grains)



1/2*0.00402kg*(944.9m/s)^2= 1794.6J of energy per 5.6mm bullet.




Fair enough.



Good ol' Guns and Ammo TV... It was on Personal Defense TV.



http://www.gunsandammo.com/tv/pdtv



The "All about Ammo" episode.

EDIT: CRAP... They didn't show the .223 on walls on the website... just the water jugs. Let me dig...









EDIT: Nevermind. Sorry... I quick scanned your post initially. I estimated 7 shots of the AR= 1 shot of 00 buck a couple of posts ago. You caught me... and I estimated. Here... calculate 9 pellets at once going into about a 5" square area vs. a single round of .223 hitting... anywhere...



And... I'm sorry for the edits, and being an arse. Much going on right now....
 
#13 ·
EDIT: Nevermind. Sorry... I quick scanned your post initially. I estimated 7 shots of the AR= 1 shot of 00 buck a couple of posts ago. You caught me... and I estimated. Here... calculate 9 pellets at once going into about a 5" square area vs. a single round of .223 hitting... anywhere...



And... I'm sorry for the edits, and being an arse. Much going on right now....




The calculation for energy doesn't take into account what the projectile is hitting, more or less just the velocity and mass of the projectile. Realistically buckshot will spread out as soon as it leaves the barrel, and when they hit a wall the energy is divided between them. The tighter the group stays the better the penetration. I guess it would be fair to say with a decent choke you could expect a good amount of penetration through a wall at a close distance, but with most HD shotguns being IC or just a open cylinder there should be enough spread to which every pellet takes its own hole and is not affected by the others through a wall.



2-3/4in Remington 00buck

404m/s (1325fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)





1/2*0.00349kg*(403.9m/s)^2=284.7J of energy per pellet



x9 pellets = 2562 Joules (total energy of all 9 pellets)



Take it for what it is but there is many variables unaccounted for. With my experience in physics and knowing the spread on my open cylinder 870 with 00buck, I think it's much safer to people in other rooms then a 223.
 
#14 ·
The calculation for energy doesn't take into account what the projectile is hitting, more or less just the velocity and mass of the projectile. Realistically buckshot will spread out as soon as it leaves the barrel, and when they hit a wall the energy is divided between them. The tighter the group stays the better the penetration. I guess it would be fair to say with a decent choke you could expect a good amount of penetration through a wall at a close distance, but with most HD shotguns being IC or just a open cylinder there should be enough spread to which every pellet takes its own hole and is not affected by the others through a wall.



2-3/4in Remington 00buck

404m/s (1325fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)





1/2*0.00349kg*(403.9m/s)^2=284.7J of energy per pellet



x9 pellets = 2562 Joules (total energy of all 9 pellets)



Take it for what it is but there is many variables unaccounted for. With my experience in physics and knowing the spread on my open cylinder 870 with 00buck, I think it's much safer to people in other rooms then a 223.


But... you're spewing numbers, and you're obviously in school. Good for you!



Ok. How can I put it? We're talking home defense initially, right? Visualize a "T" hallway layout. Bad guy enters from the left of the horizontal. You're at the base of the vertical. Bedrooms are atop of the horizontal. Would you rather risk a spastic shot or 6 trying to pin them, or put the target down in one grouped shot?



Say the vertical is 15'. With a simple improved cylinder bore, as my 870 has... I would think I could easily land 9 pellets in a bad guy UNDER DURESS ending the threat much quicker, safer and easier than someone spraying with an AR. If the bad guy tries to bum rush me... all the better. I realize it's totally subjective... but that's how I look at it.





EDIT (again... I ain't too eloquent)... You imply that you own a shotgun, but have you fully explored it's capabilities"? Cripes... look what rounds of 000 3" does at about 15'. Do you think someones gonna fight back after that?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxv66kcR_SY
 
#15 ·
The .223/5.56 has less of a risk from penetrating through walls and such because the round fragments and sheds velocity very quickly when passing through them.The 5.56 is safer than 00 buck or even handgun rounds in this area.The FBI has studied this extensively.



"Energy" is about as useless of an indicator of performance as you'll see.It's like judging a cars speed based solely on horsepower without taking any other factors into account.



More on "energy" and "knockdown power"...



1



2



3







I would think. It makes a bigger hole. I know the frag rate and terminal ballistics of the .223 are impressive, but I can't argue with the force of mass.





Yeah, you'll blow the skin/muscle off of someone, but not necessarily penetrate to the vitals for stopping power. I'll take a .45.



Not true...Not even close really.



A good 5.56 round will penetrate about the same as any other round designed for defensive purposes worth its salt(a little over 12" in ballistics gel is what seems to be strived for.The yellow line below).It also has a much larger permanent and temporary wound cavity.



This is a pretty good representation of actual ballistic gel results(I believe it's actual results,just traced over).It doesn't show the .45 but you'd be surprised at how close it is to the 9mm shown.







The temporary cavity is the outer line.The permanent cavity is the dark sections.Look at that fragmentation with the 5.56 through both.It may not be as nasty as the 12ga...But it's not that far off with all of the other advantages that go along with.



Handgun service rounds have a small temporary wound cavity and the permanent cavity looks like a tunnel.Not the explosion you see with the fragmenting 5.56.Permanent wound cavity is obviously the most important factor(it's "the hole") next to penetration.





Not needed.



Better to have.



Ok.... true. But negligible, and not really prudent.



We must have different ideas of "negligible".




I wouldn't recommend a pistol grip only shotgun, that's for sure.



Agreed.




I have alot of other links,literature,examples of ballistics gel,etc saved...



But it's late...Maybe tomorrow.




Edit-Later than I thought...Keep catching typos.I'm sure there's still more.
 
#16 ·
Uh huh. You keep on justifying that price tag. Who do you think would win in a 15 yard stand off? Bad guy with an AR, or a Bad guy with a 12 gauge? I would predict 1 toe tag, and 1 ICU. Neither would win I say. But... someone lives...



Well... I'll respond... give me a second... or 30. Gawd knows the grammar police are abound in some forums...
 
#19 ·
I didn't realize we were talking about finances(or that it was a contest).



Granted,that tends to be the last thing on my mind in these areas.



...And no I'm not rich,nor do I have "money to blow".



I've spent years sacrificing in other areas in order to get two quality ARs put together and set-up how I wanted.
 
#20 ·
I didn't realize we were talking about finances(or that it was a contest).



Granted,that tends to be the last thing on my mind in these areas.



...And no I'm not rich,nor do I have "money to blow".



I've spent years sacrificing in other areas in order to get two quality ARs put together and set-up how I wanted.


Right and you have a .223 or a 5.56 round to show for it. Now what are your ranges and what kind of damage do you realistically expect at what ranges?



Congrats. You got yourself a coyote rifle at twice the cost of a .38.



*sigh I dunno where this is going. small plunk plunks on a paper target... or what. Shoot... I can brag about shooting my GF's cousin's .117 on bulls... what?



The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up. Save some money.
 
#21 ·
The .223/5.56 has less of a risk from penetrating through walls and such because the round fragments and sheds velocity very quickly when passing through them.The 5.56 is safer than 00 buck or even handgun rounds in this area.The FBI has studied this extensively.



"Energy" is about as useless of an indicator of performance as you'll see.It's like judging a cars speed based solely on horsepower without taking any other factors into account.



More on "energy" and "knockdown power"...



1



2



3













I have alot of other links,literature,examples of ballistics gel,etc saved...



But it's late...Maybe tomorrow.




Edit-Later than I thought...Keep catching typos.I'm sure there's still more.
I wonder how a 1oz slug at 1650fps would compare?
 
#22 ·
Congrats. You got yourself a coyote rifle at twice the cost of a .38.
Coyote rifle my a$$. Tell that to the military. They clear houses with carbines, not pistols or shotguns. The military today uses shotguns for only very specialized jobs such as breaching, not CQC. And a pistol is a secondary weapon in case the primary malfs or is out of ammo. Who do you think has more practical experience, you and YouTube, or the military?



The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up.
This is just so wrong. It sounds to me as if you are trying to justify not spending the money for a superior HD weapon.



A carbine trumps a shotgun in every way that is important to me for HD - it is shorter, lighter, has less recoil, holds more ammo and is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately if followup shots are needed or if multiple targets are involved.



I don't know about you, but I (and most people) can shoot a carbine much more accurately in CQC than either a shotgun or a pistol. Oh, that's right, you said you had never shot a carbine.
 
#23 ·
The shotgun is ultimately one of the best home defense weapons period. Look it up. Save some money.


+1



For those drinking too heavily of the spiked AR "cool-aid," drink some water and dry out a bit. Let us try to be realistic in our thinking and not so fanatical. Use a preferred weapons system, practice and train with it. The shotgun and the AR are different tools for different situations.



Compare the two
  • ease of use
  • reliability
  • maintenance
  • available loads
  • available training
  • accessories
  • cost of operation
  • etc



For fun...

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html



A lever action .30-30 is also a decent HD weapon.



I was bored and wrote a Haiku and another poem.





Intruder found

Shotgun unleashes

Coroner called





One shot, one kill,

Can I afford this cleaning bill?

One shot, one splat,

I have to clean a bad guy off the mat.

One shot, one slain,

Use the Clorox to clean the stain.

One shot, one splat,

Don't let the cat eat that.
 
#24 ·
#26 ·
Coyote rifle my a$$. Tell that to the military. They clear houses with carbines, not pistols or shotguns. The military today uses shotguns for only very specialized jobs such as breaching, not CQC. And a pistol is a secondary weapon in case the primary malfs or is out of ammo. Who do you think has more practical experience, you and YouTube, or the military?





This is just so wrong. It sounds to me as if you are trying to justify not spending the money for a superior HD weapon.



A carbine trumps a shotgun in every way that is important to me for HD - it is shorter, lighter, has less recoil, holds more ammo and is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately if followup shots are needed or if multiple targets are involved.



I don't know about you, but I (and most people) can shoot a carbine much more accurately in CQC than either a shotgun or a pistol. Oh, that's right, you said you had never shot a carbine.


Dude. You've been drinking the AR Kool Aid. I can't help you. AR owners have pretty much always been known as a snooty bunch.



I'm glad you enjoy your weapon, and good luck. If it's most comfortable to you, rock on.



You can't run from the facts, though.



That is all.





To the OP... obviously HD is very subjective. Shoot whatevers most comfortable to YOU.
 
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