shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns - MP-Pistol Forum

shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns

This is a discussion on shotgun or AR ...waiting on tax returns within the Shotguns forums, part of the Armory category; ive been debating this as i await my tax returns.....i was dead set on getting a shotgun (remington 870/mossberg 500), but started looking at some ...


Go Back   MP-Pistol Forum > Armory > Shotguns

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 10th, 2010, 03:39 PM   #1
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 53
ive been debating this as i await my tax returns.....i was dead set on getting a shotgun (remington 870/mossberg 500), but started looking at some ar's at the local gun shop.....any thoughts on which you would buy first? it looks like it will be one or the other (tax gods willing) . obviously cost-wise, the shotgun has an edge. I know nobody can make the decision for me, but maybe there are some things im not considering thanks guys!
M&P Dan is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #2
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 160
What's the intended use? The shotgun would be my first choice for home security. The AR is a good farm/ranch truck gun.
elrodcod is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #3
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 53
home defense first
M&P Dan is offline  
 
Old March 10th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
jasonuscg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salish Sea
Posts: 4,539
IMHO, a shotgun and it's operating cost are a lot lower than an AR.



If you have neither a center fire rifle or a shotgun get the shotgun first. Shotguns are versatility and close quarters kings. From small birds to big brown bear. One can take "dad's" innocent looking 12 gauge pump and turn it into a door breaching, street sweeping, large and in charge command presence tool.
jasonuscg is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #5
 
FoxMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 387
Kinda apples and oranges.. lol



I paid i think $350(ish) for my 590 mossberg.







Spent around $100 for a Knoxx Spec Ops Adj Recoil-Reducing Stock







Dropped about $20 @ the gun show for this cool little scabbard for it to travel in.....





Wife got me a couple bandoleers to keep and carry extra rounds for X-mas and i bought tons of extra ammo

from ammo-to-go and i'm BEYOND set up.





I just bought my very first Ar-15 (style) rifle for G&R tactical (insert blatant sponsor plug.. lol)

I got the very best deal i could find on a S&W M&P 15 so i got the Black M&P 15 M.O.E. for $940 (not counting shipping and my FFL cost)





I ALREADY have an order in at MidwayUSA for.....

.A soft case (i didn't know S&W came with a hard case, i thought only bushmasters did)

.A couple extra 30rd mags (who knows how long S&W will take to get my free 5 promo mags)

.223 cleaning set (brushes/ect..)



I hit a wal-mart and got a couple 100rd value packs

and now looking at what optics and other fun goodies i want to put on it.

(it's looking as if i may need to sell a few vital organs just to start getting some of the things i want)





SoOoooo i guess it depends on how much you want to spend.
FoxMulder is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #6
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 79
I guess it's a matter of preference. Where do you think you'll feasibly address a threat? Inside 20 yards? Shotgun w/ buck will stop it cold.. If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...



Though I've never fired an AR, I can't picture it being much more than a coyote rifle at best. My thoughts are: at close range... .45 till you get to your shotgun. Shotgun out to 40 yards (reliably) with slugs... and then it's time for a 30-.06 or 308.



I don't want to mess around.



EDIT: Of course, not to belittle the AR... shot placement plays a BIG factor... and is more than capable of handling all 3 scenarios in the proper hands, I'm sure. But under duress... I would think the ante gets upped considerably. A 12 gauge shotgun with 1 shot of 00 buck, unleashes the equivalent of about 7 shots of an AR at closer range.



BTW... I'm a big 870 fan... Can't go wrong. No frills, no "props", proven simplicity and reliability. I love mine.
Big_Grumpy is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #7
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Clermont, FL
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246562' date='Mar 10 2010, 09:10 PM
If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing...


Since civilians aren't restricted to using m855 like general NATO forces are, with good ammo, .223/5.56 in the AR platform is extremely lethal to 2 legged predators.
tremiles is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 07:19 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Battleground, WA
Posts: 337
How about the best of both worlds, isn't there at least 1 AR that's .410 bore shotgun?



However, it's hard to beat the Mossberg 500 Persuader w/ 8 Rnd capacity and adjustable / recoil reducing buttstock. That's what my wife uses for HD.



LTUSMC
LTUSMC is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 07:51 PM   #9
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246562' date='Mar 10 2010, 09:10 PM
I guess it's a matter of preference. Where do you think you'll feasibly address a threat? Inside 20 yards? Shotgun w/ buck will stop it cold.. If you want to tick off an attacker, pepper him with an AR (.223). Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...



Though I've never fired an AR, I can't picture it being much more than a coyote rifle at best. My thoughts are: at close range... .45 till you get to your shotgun. Shotgun out to 40 yards (reliably) with slugs... and then it's time for a 30-.06 or 308.



I don't want to mess around.



EDIT: Of course, not to belittle the AR... shot placement plays a BIG factor... and is more than capable of handling all 3 scenarios in the proper hands, I'm sure. But under duress... I would think the ante gets upped considerably. A 12 gauge shotgun with 1 shot of 00 buck, unleashes the equivalent of about 7 shots of an AR at closer range.



BTW... I'm a big 870 fan... Can't go wrong. No frills, no "props", proven simplicity and reliability. I love mine.




It sounds like you think the .45 trumps th 5.56?



If given the choice,never take a handgun over a rifle.The .223/5.56 has far better terminal ballistics than a .45.With any decent round anyway.



I'll take the AR over the shotgun for HD hands down.



For starters...



5.56 75gr TAP is a formidable round and relatively safe(penetration through walls etc) compared to handgun rounds or 00 buck(what I'd be using in a shotgun).Basically it has the best balance of performing extremely well at what you want it to do with the least downside.



Much higher capacity.



Faster follow up shots(especially relative to a pump action).



The shotgun spread at typical HD ranges(again,with the 00 buck you should be using) is of little value...You still have to aim to get good hits on target.Despite what you may hear.



Typically a little more compact than a shotgun.



These are just off of the top of my head that are specific to just HD.I feel it has alot of other advantages as well.



Not that a shotgun isn't a good choice for HD.It just isn't the be all that it's made out to be.I feel the AR is better for the job.
The Jerm is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #10
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246562' date='Mar 11 2010, 02:10 AM
Although... the .223 DOES have less penetrating power and you have less chance of endangering someone in the next room as a wall or 2 will disperse the bullet, and that's appealing... also the gun is pretty neat looking...


Not trying to call you out, but more or less set the record straight. Crunching a few numbers the .223 should have around 7 times as much energy as each 00buck pellet. With the spread pattern of a shotgun it wouldn't be accurate to determine the energy of all the pellets because they are all producing separate holes. Also the 223 has nearly the same weight packed into a smaller diameter, so should penetrate easier. Again not trying to call you out, I'm just interested in where you got your info.







Remington 3in magnum 12ga buckshot



373.4m/s (1225fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)



1/2*0.00349kg*(373.4m/s)^2=243.3J of energy per each 8.4mm pellet





Winchester 62grn 223 fmj



944.9m/s (3100fps)

0.00402kg (62grains)



1/2*0.00402kg*(944.9m/s)^2= 1794.6J of energy per 5.6mm bullet.
thooper41 is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 09:08 PM   #11
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246602 View Post
If given the choice,never take a handgun over a rifle.The .223/5.56 has far better terminal ballistics than a .45.With any decent round anyway.


Yeah, you'll blow the skin/muscle off of someone, but not necessarily penetrate to the vitals for stopping power. I'll take a .45.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246602 View Post
Much higher capacity.
Not needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246602 View Post
The shotgun spread at typical HD ranges(again,with the 00 buck you should be using) is of little value...You still have to aim to get good hits on target.Despite what you may hear.
Absolutely. But it still boils down to a blast the size of a fist, vs. a size of a pen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerm' post='246602 View Post
Not that a shotgun isn't a good choice for HD.It just isn't the be all that it's made out to be.I feel the AR is better for the job.


Have to wholeheartedly disagree there. Not for the price, and I hate to say this dang term..."stopping power".
Big_Grumpy is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #12
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by thooper41' post='246608' date='Mar 10 2010, 11:43 PM
Not trying to call you out, but more or less set the record straight. Crunching a few numbers the .223 should have around 7 times as much energy as each 00buck pellet. With the spread pattern of a shotgun it wouldn't be accurate to determine the energy of all the pellets because they are all producing separate holes. Also the 223 has nearly the same weight packed into a smaller diameter, so should penetrate easier. Again not trying to call you out, I'm just interested in where you got your info.







Remington 3in magnum 12ga buckshot



373.4m/s (1225fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)



1/2*0.00349kg*(373.4m/s)^2=243.3J of energy per each 8.4mm pellet





Winchester 62grn 223 fmj







944.9m/s (3100fps)

0.00402kg (62grains)



1/2*0.00402kg*(944.9m/s)^2= 1794.6J of energy per 5.6mm bullet.




Fair enough.



Good ol' Guns and Ammo TV... It was on Personal Defense TV.



http://www.gunsandammo.com/tv/pdtv



The "All about Ammo" episode.

EDIT: CRAP... They didn't show the .223 on walls on the website... just the water jugs. Let me dig...









EDIT: Nevermind. Sorry... I quick scanned your post initially. I estimated 7 shots of the AR= 1 shot of 00 buck a couple of posts ago. You caught me... and I estimated. Here... calculate 9 pellets at once going into about a 5" square area vs. a single round of .223 hitting... anywhere...



And... I'm sorry for the edits, and being an arse. Much going on right now....
Big_Grumpy is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #13
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246618' date='Mar 11 2010, 06:13 AM
EDIT: Nevermind. Sorry... I quick scanned your post initially. I estimated 7 shots of the AR= 1 shot of 00 buck a couple of posts ago. You caught me... and I estimated. Here... calculate 9 pellets at once going into about a 5" square area vs. a single round of .223 hitting... anywhere...



And... I'm sorry for the edits, and being an arse. Much going on right now....




The calculation for energy doesn't take into account what the projectile is hitting, more or less just the velocity and mass of the projectile. Realistically buckshot will spread out as soon as it leaves the barrel, and when they hit a wall the energy is divided between them. The tighter the group stays the better the penetration. I guess it would be fair to say with a decent choke you could expect a good amount of penetration through a wall at a close distance, but with most HD shotguns being IC or just a open cylinder there should be enough spread to which every pellet takes its own hole and is not affected by the others through a wall.



2-3/4in Remington 00buck

404m/s (1325fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)





1/2*0.00349kg*(403.9m/s)^2=284.7J of energy per pellet



x9 pellets = 2562 Joules (total energy of all 9 pellets)



Take it for what it is but there is many variables unaccounted for. With my experience in physics and knowing the spread on my open cylinder 870 with 00buck, I think it's much safer to people in other rooms then a 223.
thooper41 is offline  
Old March 10th, 2010, 11:43 PM   #14
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by thooper41' post='246641' date='Mar 11 2010, 02:06 AM
The calculation for energy doesn't take into account what the projectile is hitting, more or less just the velocity and mass of the projectile. Realistically buckshot will spread out as soon as it leaves the barrel, and when they hit a wall the energy is divided between them. The tighter the group stays the better the penetration. I guess it would be fair to say with a decent choke you could expect a good amount of penetration through a wall at a close distance, but with most HD shotguns being IC or just a open cylinder there should be enough spread to which every pellet takes its own hole and is not affected by the others through a wall.



2-3/4in Remington 00buck

404m/s (1325fps)

0.00349kg per pellet (54grains)





1/2*0.00349kg*(403.9m/s)^2=284.7J of energy per pellet



x9 pellets = 2562 Joules (total energy of all 9 pellets)



Take it for what it is but there is many variables unaccounted for. With my experience in physics and knowing the spread on my open cylinder 870 with 00buck, I think it's much safer to people in other rooms then a 223.


But... you're spewing numbers, and you're obviously in school. Good for you!



Ok. How can I put it? We're talking home defense initially, right? Visualize a "T" hallway layout. Bad guy enters from the left of the horizontal. You're at the base of the vertical. Bedrooms are atop of the horizontal. Would you rather risk a spastic shot or 6 trying to pin them, or put the target down in one grouped shot?



Say the vertical is 15'. With a simple improved cylinder bore, as my 870 has... I would think I could easily land 9 pellets in a bad guy UNDER DURESS ending the threat much quicker, safer and easier than someone spraying with an AR. If the bad guy tries to bum rush me... all the better. I realize it's totally subjective... but that's how I look at it.





EDIT (again... I ain't too eloquent)... You imply that you own a shotgun, but have you fully explored it's capabilities"? Cripes... look what rounds of 000 3" does at about 15'. Do you think someones gonna fight back after that?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxv66kcR_SY
Big_Grumpy is offline  
Old March 11th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #15
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 792
The .223/5.56 has less of a risk from penetrating through walls and such because the round fragments and sheds velocity very quickly when passing through them.The 5.56 is safer than 00 buck or even handgun rounds in this area.The FBI has studied this extensively.



"Energy" is about as useless of an indicator of performance as you'll see.It's like judging a cars speed based solely on horsepower without taking any other factors into account.



More on "energy" and "knockdown power"...



1



2



3







Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Grumpy' post='246615' date='Mar 11 2010, 01:08 AM
I would think. It makes a bigger hole. I know the frag rate and terminal ballistics of the .223 are impressive, but I can't argue with the force of mass.





Yeah, you'll blow the skin/muscle off of someone, but not necessarily penetrate to the vitals for stopping power. I'll take a .45.



Not true...Not even close really.



A good 5.56 round will penetrate about the same as any other round designed for defensive purposes worth its salt(a little over 12" in ballistics gel is what seems to be strived for.The yellow line below).It also has a much larger permanent and temporary wound cavity.



This is a pretty good representation of actual ballistic gel results(I believe it's actual results,just traced over).It doesn't show the .45 but you'd be surprised at how close it is to the 9mm shown.








The temporary cavity is the outer line.The permanent cavity is the dark sections.Look at that fragmentation with the 5.56 through both.It may not be as nasty as the 12ga...But it's not that far off with all of the other advantages that go along with.



Handgun service rounds have a small temporary wound cavity and the permanent cavity looks like a tunnel.Not the explosion you see with the fragmenting 5.56.Permanent wound cavity is obviously the most important factor(it's "the hole") next to penetration.






Not needed.



Better to have.



Ok.... true. But negligible, and not really prudent.



We must have different ideas of "negligible".



I wouldn't recommend a pistol grip only shotgun, that's for sure.



Agreed.




I have alot of other links,literature,examples of ballistics gel,etc saved...



But it's late...Maybe tomorrow.



Edit-Later than I thought...Keep catching typos.I'm sure there's still more.
The Jerm is offline  
Reply

  MP-Pistol Forum > Armory > Shotguns


Search tags for this page

mossberg 500 scabbard

Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MP9c returns from S&W Joe S. MP Compact Pistols 22 February 1st, 2008 03:33 PM
It's time for tax returns and I've got the bug. MilitaryPower MP Rifles 20 May 30th, 2007 05:33 PM



Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2006-2012 MP-Pistol. All rights reserved.
MP-Pistol is a M&P pistol enthusiast forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. of Springfield, MA.