I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF - Page 3 - MP-Pistol Forum

I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF

This is a discussion on I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF within the Survival forums, part of the Armory category; I'll take an AR all day long, and yes; I have shot running deer and many other things with rifles, including AR's....


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Old May 31st, 2014, 10:44 AM   #31
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I'll take an AR all day long, and yes; I have shot running deer and many other things with rifles, including AR's.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 03:24 PM   #32
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I have the Henry US Survival (aka AR7) in my INCH bag for taking of small game.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 02:25 PM   #33
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The old pre Henry were unreliable and inaccurate, Henry fixed the other manufacturers issues. Others like the papoose are just too big and bulky.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 04:46 PM   #34
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If you want your shotgun to be a really good home defense weapon, put a short rifled barrel on it and shoot buckshot. I patterned one at 25 yards and the group was somewhat over 3 feet across. Across a 15 foot room, you'll have about a 9-12 inch spread.

Last edited by agksimon; June 2nd, 2014 at 01:52 AM.
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 10:21 AM   #35
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Well, ya know what they say about opinions, right? They're just like a certain orifice...everybody has one....

"When people think self-defense, handguns most often come to mind. But with its versatile design, higher capacity and a wealth of great ammo options available, an AR just might be the only home defense gun you’ll ever need to own."

Here is an article well worth the reading...

AR-15: The Ideal Home Defense Gun? | Gun Digest
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 02:18 PM   #36
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I have no expertise so my opinion probably isn't worth much, but I would feel good with an old surplus rifle, such as a Mauser or a Mosin, with a fixed bayonet and steel butt plate. I think something like that would be able to handle most dangerous encounters...

There are many good weapon platforms out there, but its all about what you have access too...
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 05:09 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by John in ar View Post
+1

Fwiw, my opinion is just that; opinion. The opinion of a guy who was 11B infantry more than 30 years ago, started shooting competitively in the PPC days of the 1970's, and shot ipsc competition in the 80's & 90's. I carried a riot shotgun on LE duty for a decade or so, and 6-8 years ago dropped the shotgun in favor of a CAR-15 for duty carry. It's the same gun that I deer hunt with, and yes, in my area the deer are small enough (and frankly I'm a good enough shot) that a thoughtfully-loaded AR is plenty effective for that use. I've been "killed" many times in force-on-force training at a training facility where I've played 'bad guy' in the training of police and military units ranging from local swat to US military to NNSA to foreign units including gign and gsg9. (that facility is here: DARC) I've been chased and 'killed' by some very able people over the years; fortunately in a setting that allowed me the opportunity to evaluate my tactics, my assumptions, my decisions, and my gear. There have been times I survived the encounters, times when I was killed after using more than a half-dozen magazines of simunition, and times when I was killed while on my first magazine. It doesn't make me any kind of spec-ops guy or 'operator'; it simply makes me a guy who's had the fortunate opportunity to learn from 'fatal' mistakes. That said, my opinion is simply this...

The 12-gauge is a VERY effective round. But the 12-gauge is not a very efficient round. In the scenarios put forward in the OP, the "group of attackers from 200 yards to close-range" (paraphrasing) the carbine would absolutely be my first choice if I had the opportunity to augment the handgun. It gives me a foot-mobile sustained rate of fire that a shotgun can't match, and it also has a follow-up shot speed that a shotgun can't match. My carbine carries a compact 1-4X Leupold scope that (at 1X) is as fast to use as a red dot, and at 4X lets me reach out effectively to several hundred yards; something else a shotgun can't match.

Honestly, the only time I'd give the shotgun equal points for on-foot defensive carry is if the carbine were gimped due to political factors such as five-round magazine limit or such. If the carbine were limited 5-round detachable magazines and the shotgun had eight rounds, I might choose the shotgun. Might. If both were limited to an equal number of rounds, I'd choose the carbine every time.
I love intelligent INFORMED opinions. Though I don't have the experiences John has had, I've drawn on the experiences of many, and evaluated my own skill set (I'm VERY proficient with the AR platform, whereas the shot gun I run much less frequently). I've also looked at what is available to me where I live (Florida allows unrestricted magazines). After that evaluation... My primary defensive gun is a 16" AR-15 with a 40-round P-Mag with a Taran Tactical +6 extension. Yes... 46 rounds of 5.56 (typically Hornady TAP). My backup is a M&P 40, with a 20-round Taran Tactical extended mag. Loaded up with 180gn Gold Dot hollow-points (sometimes HSTs).

I NEVER anticipate engaging ANYONE even past about 50 yards, even if I'm "on the run". It's just not tactically smart. If my enemy is 50+ yards away, I'm a moving target. Moving quickly in the other direction! If I'm holed up and getting advanced on? A 1-4 Optic and a stack of 40 and 46 round PMags will make me a decidedly unattractive target. I will use my very-high capacity M&P to fight my way back to a rifle... mine or one of theirs.

I own a Mossberg 930 which is a VERY formidable weapon... but it is HEAVY, slow to shoot, and limited to 9 rounds with glacially slow reloads... and a foot longer than my AR.

Only my opinion... but my AR is my Go-To... Of course in a month or two, I'll have a 300BLK AR, and access to lots of ammo... Game changer.

JeffWard
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 01:14 PM   #38
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...I own a Mossberg 930 which is a VERY formidable weapon... but it is HEAVY, slow to shoot, and limited to 9 rounds with glacially slow reloads... and a foot longer than my AR...
Funny, I just bought a 930 last year myself. I'm not a shotgun guy at all, but I figured everyone should own one good semiauto 12 gauge and my only shotgun for 20+ years has been an 18" mossberg 500. Another part of the reason was because one of my grown sons IS a shotgun guy at heart and he also didn't own a semiauto; so this gun is potentially for his use someday.

My BIL in texas is a major trap (or maybe skeet...?) competitor who took #2 in the world championships in San Antonio a few years ago, and with all the multi-thousand-dollar shotguns he owns & uses, he relies on a 930 for defensive shotgun use. After listening to him recommend them for two or three years, I finally got one and am hugely happy with it.

Not near happy enough to give up my carbine, though; it is still a member of the shotgun species after all...
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 04:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
I love intelligent INFORMED opinions. Though I don't have the experiences John has had, I've drawn on the experiences of many, and evaluated my own skill set (I'm VERY proficient with the AR platform, whereas the shot gun I run much less frequently). I've also looked at what is available to me where I live (Florida allows unrestricted magazines). After that evaluation... My primary defensive gun is a 16" AR-15 with a 40-round P-Mag with a Taran Tactical +6 extension. Yes... 46 rounds of 5.56 (typically Hornady TAP). My backup is a M&P 40, with a 20-round Taran Tactical extended mag. Loaded up with 180gn Gold Dot hollow-points (sometimes HSTs).

I NEVER anticipate engaging ANYONE even past about 50 yards, even if I'm "on the run". It's just not tactically smart. If my enemy is 50+ yards away, I'm a moving target. Moving quickly in the other direction! If I'm holed up and getting advanced on? A 1-4 Optic and a stack of 40 and 46 round PMags will make me a decidedly unattractive target. I will use my very-high capacity M&P to fight my way back to a rifle... mine or one of theirs.

I own a Mossberg 930 which is a VERY formidable weapon... but it is HEAVY, slow to shoot, and limited to 9 rounds with glacially slow reloads... and a foot longer than my AR.

Only my opinion... but my AR is my Go-To... Of course in a month or two, I'll have a 300BLK AR, and access to lots of ammo... Game changer.

JeffWard
+1 except My go to rifle is my 18" L1A1 with a 1.25x4 power optic. I Love informed, vetted responses as well.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 05:03 PM   #40
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I played a few scenarios in my head, using examples found in Western/gangster/zombie movies and I think assault rifles aren't really good defensive weapons if you are the only defender with one.

See the worst case scenario is if you're outside and being chased down by a group of people. Even with a red dot sight, an assault rifle would be extremely difficult to use to hit people running at you. You'd hit one or two but that's probably it. In this kind of situation, I would rather have a shotgun with 00 buck - I could probably hit with every shot and then when they got into close range I would whip out the handgun and take down the rest.

From a long range 200 yards or more, I think a hunting rifle would be better. Then at 100 yards, move tactically and use shotgun as they closed in. It would be hard to use an assault rifle unless you're stationary and holed in. The average person can cover 100 yards in less than 15 seconds.

If you're with a group of several people who are armed, absolutely this is the best application of an assault rifle. It allows you to focus only on 1 or 2 targets at a time.

In summary, if you're on your own I think a shotgun and handgun are the best especially if you have to travel outside. If you're with a group then an assault rifle can be handy.

In a SHTF scenario you have to be prepared to move. I think it's sheer lunacy how all the doomsday preppers are preparing bunkers etc. In every single conflict around the world - people move, they don't just stay in the area of chaos. Therefore one has to think about protection that isn't going to appear anti-social, and is going to be light enough to travel. I think carrying an assault rifle, shotgun and handgun is too much and can in fact be a hindrance if you need to suddenly run; however a shotgun/handgun is the best combination.

Thoughts?
Well I am speaking from experience not theory I will say this. I see where you are coming from I think you are going with the panicked scatter and splatter theory. While this theory would work on humans in very tight spaces all the while subjecting the target with noise as well as hopefully be physically incapacitating. There is and never will be any weapon better suited or a SHTF scenario than an assault rifle. I will not get into what that weapon should be that is another post all together. In my service I carried three weapons a rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Shotgun used for blowing door hinges off and making lots of noise. Rifle used for doing the kings work and making sure me and my buddies came home. The pistol was used when my rifle went empty or broke. Shotguns are used for feeding your family rifle used for protecting them. Only benefit of shotgun over rifle would be the reduced probability of over penetration. However in a mass assault over penetration is precisely what you want. Kill two birds one stone kind of thing. Well there is my two cents. Happy hunting.
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Old June 4th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post

I've also looked at what is available to me where I live (Florida allows unrestricted magazines). After that evaluation... My primary defensive gun is a 16" AR-15 with a 40-round P-Mag with a Taran Tactical +6 extension. Yes... 46 rounds of 5.56 (typically Hornady TAP). My backup is a M&P 40, with a 20-round Taran Tactical extended mag. Loaded up with 180gn Gold Dot hollow-points (sometimes HSTs).
JeffWard
I'm guessing if you actually run out of ammo, you probably shouldn't have been there in the first place...
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Old June 4th, 2014, 01:02 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by OperatorX View Post
I'm guessing if you actually run out of ammo, you probably shouldn't have been there in the first place...
Very true! With 67 rounds on tap before I have to reload... I figure I can manage about 25-30 bogeys.

JW
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Old October 25th, 2015, 07:17 AM   #43
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I was a 13b not an 11b but were not sissies either. I wouldn't argue that an AR isn't the best weapon here, but just for fun:

As far as I know the shotgun is still used by all branches of the military to include special forces units. Perhaps they use it strictly for breaching but I don't think so.

If what I've read is true, lots of special forces guys in Vietnam (I wasn't there) preferred the shotgun.

Again, if what I've read is true, the shotgun caused more casualties per weapon than any other individually issued (not crew served) weapon in Vietnam. I think the author quoted a government study but I really don't recall. Also, in WWI the shotgun was used very effectively in clearing trenches. Apparently the Germans (first users of the flamenwurfe and poison gas) got very upset.

Again, I'm not saying the AR isn't the best but with these things in mind the shotgun must have something going for it.



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Old October 25th, 2015, 11:17 AM   #44
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It really is a complicated question, if using a long gun, is a shotgun or an AR better?

A shotgun is a very impressive self defense weapon, at close ranges like a home there is little you can use that would be more effective, their wounds at close range are devastating.

The downside of the shotgun is the recoil, if the shooter is a woman or a child the extremely abusive recoil of a buckshot load, they may only be able to get off one shot.

The AR is a little complicated, but if a person has been properly trained in the use and operation of the weapon that's not really a problem, the big advantage is the recoil is much easier to deal with.

The big downside of the AR is the risk of over penetration if you miss, a 5.56 bullet can go through a lot of walls. I could never recommend an AR for someone who lived in an apartment or row house.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 01:03 PM   #45
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I'm not a special ops guy or anything like that but it seems like he could do a lot worse than a shotgun, especially given the limitations he's under. Won't the size of the pattern depend on the length of barrel he uses? I think his plan is basically to lay down some suppressive fire and withdraw or e and e; a shotgun might not be so bad for that, especially if there's dense foliage involved.
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