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I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF

This is a discussion on I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF within the Survival forums, part of the Armory category; Originally Posted by G56 It really is a complicated question, if using a long gun, is a shotgun or an AR better? Shooting little things ...


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Old October 25th, 2015, 05:27 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G56 View Post
It really is a complicated question, if using a long gun, is a shotgun or an AR better?
Shooting little things out of the air: shotgun/birdshot
Shooting really big animals: shotgun/slugs
Everything else: AR

Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

Quote:
A shotgun is a very impressive self defense weapon, at close ranges like a home there is little you can use that would be more effective, their wounds at close range are devastating.
Buckshot, at appropriate ranges, does have an impressive wounding potential. Shotguns aren't impressive self-defense weapons because per-shot wounding potential is only part of the equation.

Quote:
The downside of the shotgun is the recoil, if the shooter is a woman or a child the extremely abusive recoil of a buckshot load, they may only be able to get off one shot.
There are many more downsides to shotguns. Size, weight, balance, ergonomics, and range of the weapon; magazine capacity; reloading speed and complexity; size and weight of ammunition; lack of kevlar penetration capability; and probably more I didn't think of right now. Recoil is an antagonist to everyone's ability to fight with a weapon not just women and children.

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The AR is a little complicated, but if a person has been properly trained in the use and operation of the weapon that's not really a problem, the big advantage is the recoil is much easier to deal with.
The AR's manual of arms is simpler and easier to learn and perform.

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The big downside of the AR is the risk of over penetration if you miss, a 5.56 bullet can go through a lot of walls. I could never recommend an AR for someone who lived in an apartment or row house.
Anything worth shooting at a bad guy will penetrate lots of wallboard, but an AR with appropriate ammo will penetrate LESS wallboard than buckshot while maintaining excellent wounding potential and the capability to penetrate soft body armor. In addition the shotgun has less margin for aiming error than the AR because of the pattern.


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Originally Posted by firecracker6 View Post
I'm not a special ops guy or anything like that but it seems like he could do a lot worse than a shotgun, especially given the limitations he's under. Won't the size of the pattern depend on the length of barrel he uses? I think his plan is basically to lay down some suppressive fire and withdraw or e and e; a shotgun might not be so bad for that, especially if there's dense foliage involved.
Barrel length has no effect, that I'm aware of, on shot patterns.

An AR is better able to sustain a volume of fire than a shotgun and your shoulder won't hate you. Tube magazines take forever to load and Saiga magazines are much bigger and lower capacity than AR mags so fewer can be carried and the gun has to be reloaded more often. Backup ammo is smaller and lighter too; 120 rounds of 5.56 on stripper clips will fit nicely in a 25 round box for 12 gauge shells.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 07:57 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyRayRiddle View Post
There are many more downsides to shotguns. Size, weight, balance, ergonomics, and range of the weapon; magazine capacity; reloading speed and complexity;

Backup ammo is smaller and lighter too; 120 rounds of 5.56 on stripper clips will fit nicely in a 25 round box for 12 gauge shells.
I don't have an hour to nitpick all the errors in this post, let me hit just a few of them.

Size, weight and balance...My 870 is no bigger than an AR, weighs less than any of my AR's, and the balance couldn't be any better, and a slide action shotgun is one of the most simple arms you could pick up.

Backup ammo? Well, if you intend on getting into a long drawn out gunfight that is a legitimate item, but 99.9% of all gunfights average about 3 shots at less than 10 yards, backup ammo or reloading aren't big considerations. But as I said the primary downside of a shotgun is the recoil. As a Deputy we almost always carried an 870 for a long gun, there were rare occasions that I would have preferred to have a rifle, but those were pretty rare, and usually I knew about it in time to be armed with a rifle. In every case it was because we were looking at distances that would probably be over 50 yards, where a shotgun would be at a disadvantage.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 11:40 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G56 View Post
I don't have an hour to nitpick all the errors in this post, let me hit just a few of them.

Size, weight and balance...My 870 is no bigger than an AR, weighs less than any of my AR's, and the balance couldn't be any better, and a slide action shotgun is one of the most simple arms you could pick up.

Backup ammo? Well, if you intend on getting into a long drawn out gunfight that is a legitimate item, but 99.9% of all gunfights average about 3 shots at less than 10 yards, backup ammo or reloading aren't big considerations. But as I said the primary downside of a shotgun is the recoil. As a Deputy we almost always carried an 870 for a long gun, there were rare occasions that I would have preferred to have a rifle, but those were pretty rare, and usually I knew about it in time to be armed with a rifle. In every case it was because we were looking at distances that would probably be over 50 yards, where a shotgun would be at a disadvantage.
This thread started with a zombie apocalypse/TEOTWAWKI scenario. That is why I brought up backup ammo. For home defense extra ammo on stripper slips is absurd.

Compared to my "tactical" shotgun my AR is 4 inches shorter, 9 ounces lighter (both fully loaded,) and the balance point is maybe an inch rearward. The difference in feel is more than the numbers imply. The AR also has better ergonomics, sights, trigger, accuracy, and is a better platform for accessories (lights, optics, suppressors, etc.) I'm not sure on what planet reloading a shotgun is simpler than reloading an AR and running a pump action is simpler than shooting a semi-auto.

"Usually" sounds like a good reason for a patrol carbine instead of a shotgun.

Last edited by BennyRayRiddle; October 25th, 2015 at 11:49 PM.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 05:55 PM   #49
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I think roles played out in the mind is a figment of imagination, and imagination can be whatever the owner wants it to be.

I trust whatever I am holding for home defense. For the zombies, AR (or AK) is a no brainer. Daily carry full size or mid size 9 (or 40) is acceptable.

EB
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Old November 4th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #50
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1st: it's not an "assault" rifle. assault rifles are fully automatic capable.
2d: you would be hard pressed to explain a 200 yard "defensive shoot"
3rd: there is a reason the M-4 is the pre-eminent CQB platform in the world.


But - go with what works for you. Just be careful about your terms and what you call 'defensive use".
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Old November 4th, 2015, 06:30 PM   #51
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Or who you may offend with improper terms/lack of experience, etc..
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Old November 5th, 2015, 06:24 AM   #52
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Shotguns are great for close work, but then again so are pistols if your accurate. Accuracy drops exponentially for those that have never experienced someone trying to kill them back. AR carbine does it all. There is a reason that every army in the world utilizes some sort of carbine for it's primary weapon platform. The carbine is the best all around weapon. For the record almost no one in the United States has "assault weapons" there are a re great many of us that own variations of semi auto carbines with standard capacity 30 round magazines.
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Old November 29th, 2015, 05:25 PM   #53
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Are the Lee-Enfields not allowed in Canada?
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