I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF - MP-Pistol Forum

I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF

This is a discussion on I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF within the Survival forums, part of the Armory category; I played a few scenarios in my head, using examples found in Western/gangster/zombie movies and I think assault rifles aren't really good defensive weapons if ...


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Old February 22nd, 2013, 02:45 PM   #1
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I'm thinking an assault rifle isn't the best defensive gun when the SHTF

I played a few scenarios in my head, using examples found in Western/gangster/zombie movies and I think assault rifles aren't really good defensive weapons if you are the only defender with one.

See the worst case scenario is if you're outside and being chased down by a group of people. Even with a red dot sight, an assault rifle would be extremely difficult to use to hit people running at you. You'd hit one or two but that's probably it. In this kind of situation, I would rather have a shotgun with 00 buck - I could probably hit with every shot and then when they got into close range I would whip out the handgun and take down the rest.

From a long range 200 yards or more, I think a hunting rifle would be better. Then at 100 yards, move tactically and use shotgun as they closed in. It would be hard to use an assault rifle unless you're stationary and holed in. The average person can cover 100 yards in less than 15 seconds.

If you're with a group of several people who are armed, absolutely this is the best application of an assault rifle. It allows you to focus only on 1 or 2 targets at a time.

In summary, if you're on your own I think a shotgun and handgun are the best especially if you have to travel outside. If you're with a group then an assault rifle can be handy.

In a SHTF scenario you have to be prepared to move. I think it's sheer lunacy how all the doomsday preppers are preparing bunkers etc. In every single conflict around the world - people move, they don't just stay in the area of chaos. Therefore one has to think about protection that isn't going to appear anti-social, and is going to be light enough to travel. I think carrying an assault rifle, shotgun and handgun is too much and can in fact be a hindrance if you need to suddenly run; however a shotgun/handgun is the best combination.

Thoughts?
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 03:12 PM   #2
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Have you ever shot a target with 00 Buck?

At any range where it is effective, it does nothing that a AR would not do, except its less accurate, with fewer rounds in the mag, and slower follow up shots.

For long range an AR is as accurate as the vast majority of "hunting" rifles" what ever that is, except it has more rounds in the mag, and faster followup shots.

Up close it is better than a handgun, because it is more accurate, fires a more powerful round, and has faster followup shots.

You have never been in the military have you?
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 03:15 PM   #3
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Well, at home defense ranges, a shotgun only has a spread of a little more than an inch, not good odds of hitting a moving target. Additionally, a shotgun isn't easy to manipulate in a hallway as the typical hallway width is almost as much as the average 12 gauge. Your rounds are more limited and when someone hears the sound of a homeowner racking a round in, that homeowner may well be initiating a gunfight that the intruder didn't want - up until the point of hearing the loading of a round.

I can't answer for zombie stuff, but for my family, a tactical weapon with a large magazine is the weapon of choice with everyone backed up with a handgun of their choosing.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 03:19 PM   #4
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Thoughts?

Hmm...how about we apply principles according to each individual and unique approach to a problem. You keep believing in your way of defense and let others adapt away that they feel is more appropriate. Humans are a dynamic bunch and have this great capacity to observe and adapt.

You played a few scenarios in your head...that is a good excercise. Have you been in actual combat? Have you had a full on crazy, 72 virgin dreaming believer whack job run at you? Have you ever been pinned down in a valley with a few of your brothers with nowhere to run?

Keep playing those scenarios in your head and prepare for whatever SHTF situation is out there for you. But it is pure folly to sit there and imply "the sheer lunacy" of how other people try to develop plans on how they would deal with their own SHTF scenario.

Last edited by Bernymac; February 22nd, 2013 at 03:22 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 03:22 PM   #5
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An AR-15 has a usuable range of a few feet to 800+ yards, with more capacity and less recoil. Someone running straight at you is a fairly easy target.

Buckshot has no spread at short range, might as well use slugs which are good to over 100 yards.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bernymac View Post
Thoughts?

Hmm...how about we apply principles according to each individual and unique approach to a problem. You keep believing in your way of defense and let others adapt away that they feel is more appropriate. Humans are a dynamic bunch and have this great capacity to observe and adapt.

You played a few scenarios in your head...that is a good excercise. Have you been in actual combat? Have you had a full on crazy, 72 virgin dreaming believer whack job run at you? Have you ever been pinned down in a valley with a few of your brothers with nowhere to run?

Keep playing those scenarios in your head and prepare for whatever SHTF situation is out there for you. But it is pure folly to sit there and imply "the sheer lunacy" of how other people try to develop plans on how they would deal with their own SHTF scenario.
No need to get personal. I shared my opinion, and I invited you to share yours. That's all. It's a friendly discussion and I am open to learning. Instead of sharing your opinion on why my points may be wrong, all you've done is just interrogate me without contributing anything constructive to the discussion. Getting all personal makes you sound very hostile and angry.

Have you had a career where you get paid big bucks just to brainstorm? Or are you just a grunt that has to follow orders without thinking? See how interrogation makes one look like an ass? It's a forum - so just... talk, not pontificate.

Last edited by superlative; February 22nd, 2013 at 06:47 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by bfayer View Post
Have you ever shot a target with 00 Buck?

At any range where it is effective, it does nothing that a AR would not do, except its less accurate, with fewer rounds in the mag, and slower follow up shots.

For long range an AR is as accurate as the vast majority of "hunting" rifles" what ever that is, except it has more rounds in the mag, and faster followup shots.

Up close it is better than a handgun, because it is more accurate, fires a more powerful round, and has faster followup shots.
You're not paying attention to where I'm located. I am in Canada, and we aren't allowed to run around with assault rifles. Pretty much the only legal combat rifles that are unrestricted are the VZ58 and the Benelli, and the magazines are limited to 5 rounds. Therefore all this talk about more rounds is moot. Therefore "assault rifles" are equivalent to hunting rifles.

And I have been clay target shooting, that's why I know I can hit a moving human target with a shotgun, but ask how many people have hit a running deer with a rifle or a clay target with a rifle round - it's difficult.

As for close quarters, there's no way you can take down more targets with an assault rifle with a 5 round magazine then I can with an M&P and 10 round magazine because you have to swing the barrel around which can be grabbed etc.

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You have never been in the military have you?
What's the relevance of this question? Have you ever been chased and attacked by 10-12 people and you're the only one in your group who is armed?
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 07:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by superlative View Post
No need to get personal. I shared my opinion, and I invited you to share yours. That's all. It's a friendly discussion and I am open to learning. Instead of sharing your opinion on why my points may be wrong, all you've done is just interrogate me without contributing anything constructive to the discussion. Getting all personal makes you sound very hostile and angry.

Have you had a career where you get paid big bucks just to brainstorm? Or are you just a grunt that has to follow orders without thinking? See how interrogation makes one look like an ass? It's a forum - so just... talk, not pontificate.
Being a grunt is a lot more than just pulling a trigger or being told to run over that hill without knowing what's over it.. Especially as a TL or SL, you have to be a tactician, make sound decisions quickly or your Soldiers die.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:11 PM   #9
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It is not always about the choice of weapon rather than the ability of the shooter. Practice, practice, practice. Training, training, training.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:46 PM   #10
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No need to get personal. I shared my opinion, and I invited you to share yours.
I did share my opinion, you just took it a little too personally. The problem with the interwebs is that the written word does not convey emotion. It tends to hurt the feelings of those who ask for "thought". Part of those "thoughts" included questions and you took it as "interrogation". No emotional barbs here, you just took it the wrong way. Don't be too sensitive.

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Have you had a career where you get paid big bucks just to brainstorm?
With thoughts like these, I take it that you don't get paid for thinking at all!

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Or are you just a grunt that has to follow orders without thinking?
You use the word "grunt" like you know what it means. Have you ever been a grunt or you just knew someone who was a grunt?

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Originally Posted by superlative View Post
See how interrogation makes one look like an ass? It's a forum - so just... talk, not pontificate.
Pontificate? Have you read your original post? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

pot...kettle...black

Last edited by Bernymac; February 22nd, 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:53 PM   #11
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The best defensive tool is the one you have at hand when a need arises. Most of the time that will be limited to a pistol due to social and legal limits.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 09:07 PM   #12
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The best defensive tool is the one you have at hand when a need arises. Most of the time that will be limited to a pistol due to social and legal limits.
+1
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 09:13 PM   #13
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The best defensive tool is the one you have at hand when a need arises. Most of the time that will be limited to a pistol due to social and legal limits.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
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Old February 24th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #14
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The best defensive tool is the one you have at hand when a need arises. Most of the time that will be limited to a pistol due to social and legal limits.
+1

Fwiw, my opinion is just that; opinion. The opinion of a guy who was 11B infantry more than 30 years ago, started shooting competitively in the PPC days of the 1970's, and shot ipsc competition in the 80's & 90's. I carried a riot shotgun on LE duty for a decade or so, and 6-8 years ago dropped the shotgun in favor of a CAR-15 for duty carry. It's the same gun that I deer hunt with, and yes, in my area the deer are small enough (and frankly I'm a good enough shot) that a thoughtfully-loaded AR is plenty effective for that use. I've been "killed" many times in force-on-force training at a training facility where I've played 'bad guy' in the training of police and military units ranging from local swat to US military to NNSA to foreign units including gign and gsg9. (that facility is here: DARC) I've been chased and 'killed' by some very able people over the years; fortunately in a setting that allowed me the opportunity to evaluate my tactics, my assumptions, my decisions, and my gear. There have been times I survived the encounters, times when I was killed after using more than a half-dozen magazines of simunition, and times when I was killed while on my first magazine. It doesn't make me any kind of spec-ops guy or 'operator'; it simply makes me a guy who's had the fortunate opportunity to learn from 'fatal' mistakes. That said, my opinion is simply this...

The 12-gauge is a VERY effective round. But the 12-gauge is not a very efficient round. In the scenarios put forward in the OP, the "group of attackers from 200 yards to close-range" (paraphrasing) the carbine would absolutely be my first choice if I had the opportunity to augment the handgun. It gives me a foot-mobile sustained rate of fire that a shotgun can't match, and it also has a follow-up shot speed that a shotgun can't match. My carbine carries a compact 1-4X Leupold scope that (at 1X) is as fast to use as a red dot, and at 4X lets me reach out effectively to several hundred yards; something else a shotgun can't match.

Honestly, the only time I'd give the shotgun equal points for on-foot defensive carry is if the carbine were gimped due to political factors such as five-round magazine limit or such. If the carbine were limited 5-round detachable magazines and the shotgun had eight rounds, I might choose the shotgun. Might. If both were limited to an equal number of rounds, I'd choose the carbine every time.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 07:46 PM   #15
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Another non-citizen trying to tell us what we need.I don't care how they do it in Canada.
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